Viper Files Lawsuit

The day has finally come, Viper has filed his lawsuit over the open carry incidents. We should all be ashamed of the ignorance of the PPD and more importantly the people that lead the department. They only seem to care about enforcing their opinion and beliefs, not the law.

One particular item of interest in the complaint is item #29 (attached) in the facts section of the complaint. A reference to that letter from Pat Link from the Gun Violence Task force wherein he acknowledged open carry was legal in Philadelphia. That's the letter that the sleuths on this board incorrectly claimed was "fake" cause they called him and he claimed to know nothing about it.

It will be interesting to see during his deposition if he denies it then. I predict some eating of crow by Link and the sleuths on here, just like po-po 666.

The full complaint is here

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/81951617?access_key=key-21zp39utxd0zrrwna91f

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

bozoloper's picture

you appeared before the third beetlejuice. you gotta work on your timing.

http://www.fishtown.us/content/forum/guyfergvipergpi

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

th's picture

bozoloper wrote:
you appeared before the third beetlejuice. you gotta work on your timing.

http://www.fishtown.us/content/forum/guyfergvipergpi

This is your fault.

You wanna dance? LET'S DANCE!

bozoloper's picture

th wrote:
bozoloper wrote:
you appeared before the third beetlejuice. you gotta work on your timing.

http://www.fishtown.us/content/forum/guyfergvipergpi

This is your fault.

i'll take full responsibility. now that the grocery store thread has calmed down we needed (not so) fresh entertainment.

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

GPI's picture

I wanted to be able to read and post the entire complaint first. Interesting how the ACLU is involved. They usually don't file lawsuits over frivolous matters. Very few of their complaints are without merit and are tossed for a lack of merit.

If you can put your personal bias aside regarding guns, Viper's rights were not only violated, they were trampled. You're being intellectually dishonest if you think otherwise. Hellen Keller and Stevie Wonder could see it!

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

bozoloper's picture

GPI wrote:
Hellen Keller and Stevie Wonder could see it!

oh, so now we're going to make fun of blind people.

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

Big Rog's picture

My friend's aunt growing up used to make ends meet by tripping over cracks in people's sidewalks. She was pretty angry all the time, and smelled like burnt plastic. No class.

twitter.com/bigbigrogrog

th's picture

bozoloper wrote:
GPI wrote:
Hellen Keller and Stevie Wonder could see it!

oh, so now we're going to make fun of blind people.

What did Helen Keller say when she found the cheese grater?
It was the most violent book she'd ever read.

You wanna dance? LET'S DANCE!

Matt Benatar's picture

I did the "sleuthing" as you put it, meaning I called the number you kept asking us to call. Pat Link denied any such letter. I don't know who's a bigger coward: gun zealots or their lawyers. Every time I consider carrying a gun for personal protection, you guys do an ace job of reminding me that I don't want to be anything like you.
I'm glad that the law is clarified, and for that, I thank Viper. Carrying a recorder to sue the police illustrates his true opportuni$t intention$. Is this the new frontier of civil rights? Talk about deminishing returns.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Pure_Fishtown's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
I did the "sleuthing" as you put it, meaning I called the number you kept asking us to call. Pat Link denied any such letter. I don't know who's a bigger coward: gun zealots or their lawyers. Every time I consider carrying a gun for personal protection, you guys do an ace job of reminding me that I don't want to be anything like you.
I'm glad that the law is clarified, and for that, I thank Viper. Carrying a recorder to sue the police illustrates his true opportuni$t intention$. Is this the new frontier of civil rights? Talk about deminishing returns.

Hmmm, I wonder if the reason the old site crashed was because of all the postings on this? Conspiracy!!!!!

BTW, Matt Like your post!

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Leo's picture

This police were wrong. You guys were right. Filing a lawsuit brings needed attention to the matter and will hopefully cause some real, much-needed change in the department.

I believe that you were 100% within your rights to walk around OCing in Philadelphia. It's not illegal. Recording the police was smart.

I also believe that OC is not necessarily the brightest way to go about things these days.

However, GPI & Viper - you guys really need to improve your demeanor. You're not winning any fans with your current level of charm.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

Kenzo's picture

I think it is 100% stupid to OC in Philadelphia. I know it's 100% legal to, but one does not effect the other.

Yeah... blowhard from the suburbs wants to teach the PPD a lesson openly carrying to an Auto Zone way up in Upper Torresdale because it's so badarse up there. That will win over Philadelphians.

And it was due to this incident that Harrisburg is now drafting the "Viper Law" which will severely punish cities like Philadelphia that do anything that remotely goes near the PA Uniform Firearms Act by allowing civil litigants to pursue large monetary rewards from cities that try to write local laws that play in the grey area of the PAUFA.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Leo's picture

I'm ok with the CIty not being allowed to touch PaUFA. It's dammed clear as is, and I fear an overzealous PPD & City Counsel.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

admiral's picture

I love that he filed the lawsuit on valentine's day.

What a great gift!

It's a trap!!!

Jordan's picture

Kenzo wrote:
I think it is 100% stupid to OC in Philadelphia. I know it's 100% legal to, but one does not effect the other.

Yeah... blowhard from the suburbs wants to teach the PPD a lesson openly carrying to an Auto Zone way up in Upper Torresdale because it's so badarse up there. That will win over Philadelphians.

And it was due to this incident that Harrisburg is now drafting the "Viper Law" which will severely punish cities like Philadelphia that do anything that remotely goes near the PA Uniform Firearms Act by allowing civil litigants to pursue large monetary rewards from cities that try to write local laws that play in the grey area of the PAUFA.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

My buddy Max Kennerly wrote a good article about the "Viper Law" today:

http://www.litigationandtrial.com/2012/02/articles/attorney/civil-rights-1/sympathy-for-the-devil/

A. Jordan Rushie
Fishtown Neighbors Association - Vice President
2424 East York Street, Suite 316
Philadelphia, PA 19125 215.385.LAW1 (5291)
Blog: www.phillylawblog.com
Website: www.fishtownlaw.com

GPI's picture

Difference here is that no group as prominent as the ACLU stood with your friends Aunt. Yeah, lets blame Viper. I guess some women are "asking for it" before they get raped too. Get a clue.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
This police were wrong. You guys were right. Filing a lawsuit brings needed attention to the matter and will hopefully cause some real, much-needed change in the department.

I believe that you were 100% within your rights to walk around OCing in Philadelphia. It's not illegal. Recording the police was smart.

I also believe that OC is not necessarily the brightest way to go about things these days.

However, GPI & Viper - you guys really need to improve your demeanor. You're not winning any fans with your current level of charm.

Thanks Leo. I'm not sure how long you have been around this board but after watching and experiencing the insults, name calling, and belittling of gun owners, charm is the last thing to expect from me. I came on this board and identified myself as the recipient of the Pat Link letter. I was called a liar. I offered to provide the email with FULL HEADERS which include the senders ip address (assigned to the city). The headers also include the mac id of Link's computer, the name of his workstation, and his local ip address.

Do you really think that after Vipers lawyers received this info and verified it, that they would list it in the facts portion of their complaint? And the guy who claimed to call him still says "he denied sending it."

Who do you think is lying here? I've got the goods. Who you betting on?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
This police were wrong. You guys were right. Filing a lawsuit brings needed attention to the matter and will hopefully cause some real, much-needed change in the department.

I believe that you were 100% within your rights to walk around OCing in Philadelphia. It's not illegal. Recording the police was smart.

I also believe that OC is not necessarily the brightest way to go about things these days.

However, GPI & Viper - you guys really need to improve your demeanor. You're not winning any fans with your current level of charm.

I'd also like you to comment on the merits of Viper's case. Would you take a case like his? Is it baseless or did the PPD basically stomp on his civil rights? Had he not recorded the incident, it would have been his word against the cops. I'm sure you already know how that goes in Philly.

My only wish is that he would have sat on that recording until the officers had perjured themselves and then produced it. I'm not sure if it would have to be produced during discovery which would render it useless for this. Perhaps you can shed some light?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Lauraska's picture

GPI wrote:
Difference here is that no group as prominent as the ACLU stood with your friends Aunt. Yeah, lets blame Viper. I guess some women are "asking for it" before they get raped too. Get a clue.

Yes, because Viper not being allowed to have his big boy toy is totally comparable to women being violated, abused, and brutalized. Not. You reached a new low with this one.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

Landj's picture

In the end, if you believe you are doing the right recourse of actions - just do it.

The world is divided on everything. Law suits are no different.

I was raped. Do you want to know what percentage said to let it go vs what ones said to press charges? It conflicted me so much. On one side it will be more painful to have to relive it, on the other (more important to me side) it would absolutely destroy me if I found out that someone who has been known to do this is able to do it to one other person while I just sat back and did nothing to "protect myself from having to relive it."

If you believe so strongly in said law and rights were taken away, then go forward. Do not let anyone else try to influence you other wise. I have lost what I considered good friends over my situation, but I have made many more wonderful ones at the same time.

While it's unfortunate that this is coming from tax payers money, there are many other things that we pay for that we don't like or agree with. It all goes back to you can't please everyone. Just answer to yourself at night.

Landj's picture

Ps - coming from someone who has been raped, I do not take offense to the comment. He obviously believes very strongly in this as he is allowed. I'm not looking at it like comparing which right is more important, I'm looking at it like all rights are important.

With that said, I'm going to turn on some music and clean up around a little bit.

Leo's picture

GPI wrote:
I'd also like you to comment on the merits of Viper's case. Would you take a case like his? Is it baseless or did the PPD basically stomp on his civil rights? Had he not recorded the incident, it would have been his word against the cops. I'm sure you already know how that goes in Philly.

My only wish is that he would have sat on that recording until the officers had perjured themselves and then produced it. I'm not sure if it would have to be produced during discovery which would render it useless for this. Perhaps you can shed some light?

I'm confused why a business law firm is plaintiff's counsel in this matter. I am reading the complaint now, and I may post some thoughts later.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

GPI's picture

Lauraska wrote:
GPI wrote:
Difference here is that no group as prominent as the ACLU stood with your friends Aunt. Yeah, lets blame Viper. I guess some women are "asking for it" before they get raped too. Get a clue.

Yes, because Viper not being allowed to have his big boy toy is totally comparable to women being violated, abused, and brutalized. Not. You reached a new low with this one.

The analogy went right over your head. Don't turn it into something that it isn't. The analogy is people like you and others on this site want to play the blame the victim game and somehow find fault in Viper instead of the PPD.

The same game is played in courtrooms daily as defense attorneys play the same game with rape victims.

Understand now?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
I'd also like you to comment on the merits of Viper's case. Would you take a case like his? Is it baseless or did the PPD basically stomp on his civil rights? Had he not recorded the incident, it would have been his word against the cops. I'm sure you already know how that goes in Philly.

My only wish is that he would have sat on that recording until the officers had perjured themselves and then produced it. I'm not sure if it would have to be produced during discovery which would render it useless for this. Perhaps you can shed some light?

I'm confused why a business law firm is plaintiff's counsel in this matter. I am reading the complaint now, and I may post some thoughts later.

That firm is very diverse. They did my family's estate planning and set up our trusts. In this case though the ACLU is probably driving the bus.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Matt Benatar's picture

GPI wrote:
Leo wrote:
This police were wrong. You guys were right. Filing a lawsuit brings needed attention to the matter and will hopefully cause some real, much-needed change in the department.

I believe that you were 100% within your rights to walk around OCing in Philadelphia. It's not illegal. Recording the police was smart.

I also believe that OC is not necessarily the brightest way to go about things these days.

However, GPI & Viper - you guys really need to improve your demeanor. You're not winning any fans with your current level of charm.

Thanks Leo. I'm not sure how long you have been around this board but after watching and experiencing the insults, name calling, and belittling of gun owners, charm is the last thing to expect from me. I came on this board and identified myself as the recipient of the Pat Link letter. I was called a liar. I offered to provide the email with FULL HEADERS which include the senders ip address (assigned to the city). The headers also include the mac id of Link's computer, the name of his workstation, and his local ip address.

Do you really think that after Vipers lawyers received this info and verified it, that they would list it in the facts portion of their complaint? And the guy who claimed to call him still says "he denied sending it."

Who do you think is lying here? I've got the goods. Who you betting on?

I guess I should have recorded my conversation with the attorney, but I don't record conversations because I'm not a paranoid lunatic.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Leo's picture

GPI wrote:
That firm is very diverse. They did my family's estate planning and set up our trusts. In this case though the ACLU is probably driving the bus.

…this is why I am especially confused. Business. Securities. Real Estate. Trusts. Tax, etc. Not a mention of civil rights or plaintiffs' work on there at all. Some litigation, but it seems to be commercial in nature.

This leads me to believe that the firm's in it for money, rather than a higher purpose or ideology. Of course, there's nothing wrong with wanting to get paid for doing your job. And not every case should be ideologically driven.

This is the kind of case I'd love to litigate. While people may question Viper's wisdom to OC in a municipality where there's a strong anti-gun culture, his rights were unequivocally violated by an under-informed police force.

Suits like this keep the state accountable for violating citizens' rights.

Of course, this is going to settle quickly, I imagine. Especially with the rates Ballard Spahr will charge the City.

For those of you who think Viper's a troublemaker or an idiot - he very well may be. But that's irrelevant to the point at hand: "did the police violate Viper's civil rights" . At first blush, it seems so.

Finally addressing the issue of whether attorneys would put "facts" that aren't true in a "facts" section of a court pleading - I think that "facts" are often colored by one's experiences, and truly aren't often "facts" at all.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

Leo's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
I guess I should have recorded my conversation with the attorney, but I don't record conversations because I'm not a paranoid lunatic.

Sometimes I wish my clients had recorders to memorialize conversations with police officers.

The story officers tell on the stand is usually very sanitized.

E.g., "I asked him to comply with my command."

Officer probably actually said something more like "Get the eff out of the car you emeff or I will shoot you. Shut the eff up and get on the em ground."

A colleague of mine (an attorney) was unfortunately subject to similar treatment by an officer in a similar firearms-related situation. The officer was terribly unprofessional, and muttered some colorful metaphors to my friend in court after the charges against my friend were dropped.

I am not anti-police, despite my occasional rants about the PPD. But one hears stories of officers acting very similar to the "riff-raff" they're cuffing quite often. Though the defendants are likely no angels, I think we should ask more of those who're sworn to serve and protect us.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

GPI's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
GPI wrote:
Leo wrote:
This police were wrong. You guys were right. Filing a lawsuit brings needed attention to the matter and will hopefully cause some real, much-needed change in the department.

I believe that you were 100% within your rights to walk around OCing in Philadelphia. It's not illegal. Recording the police was smart.

I also believe that OC is not necessarily the brightest way to go about things these days.

However, GPI & Viper - you guys really need to improve your demeanor. You're not winning any fans with your current level of charm.

Thanks Leo. I'm not sure how long you have been around this board but after watching and experiencing the insults, name calling, and belittling of gun owners, charm is the last thing to expect from me. I came on this board and identified myself as the recipient of the Pat Link letter. I was called a liar. I offered to provide the email with FULL HEADERS which include the senders ip address (assigned to the city). The headers also include the mac id of Link's computer, the name of his workstation, and his local ip address.

Do you really think that after Vipers lawyers received this info and verified it, that they would list it in the facts portion of their complaint? And the guy who claimed to call him still says "he denied sending it."

Who do you think is lying here? I've got the goods. Who you betting on?

I guess I should have recorded my conversation with the attorney, but I don't record conversations because I'm not a paranoid lunatic.

Blame the victim again. You would make a good defense attorney for rape suspects. Maybe point out the clothes she was wearing, or the way she walked around in her short skirt, high heels, and low top, "asking for it." Maybe you would take the Bobby Knight approach and tell her she should have "sat back and enjoyed it."

Get a clue.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Matt Benatar's picture

Let's stop talking about rape victims and stay focused on the suburban cowboy strapping his piece in the Northeast to go shopping for tires on a sunny afternoon.

Love is a Mattlefield.

sdm's picture

He never told any woman that. He made that comment in regards to a basketball game where the refs were making a number of bad calls against the Hoosiers.

From welfare to Mayfair.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
That firm is very diverse. They did my family's estate planning and set up our trusts. In this case though the ACLU is probably driving the bus.

…this is why I am especially confused. Business. Securities. Real Estate. Trusts. Tax, etc. Not a mention of civil rights or plaintiffs' work on there at all. Some litigation, but it seems to be commercial in nature.

This leads me to believe that the firm's in it for money, rather than a higher purpose or ideology. Of course, there's nothing wrong with wanting to get paid for doing your job. And not every case should be ideologically driven.

This is the kind of case I'd love to litigate. While people may question Viper's wisdom to OC in a municipality where there's a strong anti-gun culture, his rights were unequivocally violated by an under-informed police force.

Suits like this keep the state accountable for violating citizens' rights.

Of course, this is going to settle quickly, I imagine. Especially with the rates Ballard Spahr will charge the City.

For those of you who think Viper's a troublemaker or an idiot - he very well may be. But that's irrelevant to the point at hand: "did the police violate Viper's civil rights" . At first blush, it seems so.

Finally addressing the issue of whether attorneys would put "facts" that aren't true in a "facts" section of a court pleading - I think that "facts" are often colored by one's experiences, and truly aren't often "facts" at all.

In this case though, I have the "facts" and the letter is traceable right to the GPU and Pat Link's workstation. Pat and his boss Al can deny it all they want. If this gets to depositions we will see what Pat Link says under oath, not what someone claims he said in an anonymous phone call.

I got $500 to charity that says either Pat Link admits under oath that he sent it, or that the city IT people will confirm it came form his workstation. Pat could still lie under oath and claim someone in the GPU sent it from his email address and computer.

Any takers?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Leo's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
Let's stop talking about rape victims and stay focused on the suburban cowboy strapping his piece in the Northeast to go shopping for tires on a sunny afternoon.

…which is still not illegal…

justsayin'.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
Matt Benatar wrote:
I guess I should have recorded my conversation with the attorney, but I don't record conversations because I'm not a paranoid lunatic.

Sometimes I wish my clients had recorders to memorialize conversations with police officers.

The story officers tell on the stand is usually very sanitized.

E.g., "I asked him to comply with my command."

Officer probably actually said something more like "Get the eff out of the car you emeff or I will shoot you. Shut the eff up and get on the em ground."

A colleague of mine (an attorney) was unfortunately subject to similar treatment by an officer in a similar firearms-related situation. The officer was terribly unprofessional, and muttered some colorful metaphors to my friend in court after the charges against my friend were dropped.

I am not anti-police, despite my occasional rants about the PPD. But one hears stories of officers acting very similar to the "riff-raff" they're cuffing quite often. Though the defendants are likely no angels, I think we should ask more of those who're sworn to serve and protect us.

Stop making sense Leo.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Landj's picture

i only WISH there was a camera and or recorder in the room with me when it happened. i thank god that there was another person. even though she was asleep, ironically at the time it started so was i.... she is the one person that can actually place that everyone was there. the rest is up to a he said she said he thought she thought.

now im stuck with an i know what happened and a narcissistic jerk who, while i refuse to read his statement, probably thinks i asked for it or it was consensual. fortunately i have MANY things on my side, so im not too concerned about what garbage he wants to spew... but back to the video/audio - i could only wish for it.

until someones rights have been violated to a degree that they believe is truly unacceptable, they will never understand. i was in the same boat until it happened to me. its amazing how experience changes perspective.

GPI's picture

sdm wrote:
He never told any woman that. He made that comment in regards to a basketball game where the refs were making a number of bad calls against the Hoosiers.

I never claimed he told a woman that.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Landj's picture

why not stop taking the other examples literally and just look at them like a whole -

someones rights were violated.
they were NOT in the wrong.
they handled it how they choose was right.
you dont have to agree with their way of handling it, but that doesnt matter.
what matters is -
sometimes rights were violated.
and they have every right to take action in a legal way to make sure it doesnt happen again.

sdm's picture

GPI wrote:
sdm wrote:
He never told any woman that. He made that comment in regards to a basketball game where the refs were making a number of bad calls against the Hoosiers.

I never claimed he told a woman that.

"....Bobby Knight approach and tell her she should have "sat back and enjoyed it."

Well that's how it reads.

From welfare to Mayfair.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
Matt Benatar wrote:
Let's stop talking about rape victims and stay focused on the suburban cowboy strapping his piece in the Northeast to go shopping for tires on a sunny afternoon.

…which is still not illegal…

justsayin'.

If you would have said that a year ago on here, other posters, including a PPD Detective would have told you it was illegal. This would still occur even after you posted relevant case law, a letter from the Philly DA stating otherwise, and PASC case law.

One funny quote by the detective was along the lines of "I asked my boss and other co-workers and they all said open carry is illegal in Philadelphia. I even asked a couple prosecutors. Our directive even says it is illegal."

Talk about Stockholm Syndrome!

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Matt Benatar's picture

I don't know of any women who put on something sexy and then wear a wire to record their anticipated raping. Can we please stop the raped woman analogies? They are stupid.

Love is a Mattlefield.

GPI's picture

Landj wrote:
why not stop taking the other examples literally and just look at them like a whole -

someones rights were violated.
they were NOT in the wrong.
they handled it how they choose was right.
you dont have to agree with their way of handling it, but that doesnt matter.
what matters is -
sometimes rights were violated.
and they have every right to take action in a legal way to make sure it doesnt happen again.

NO! This was the suburban cowboys fault, not the PPD. If people on here actually read the complaint they might realize it isn't about the 2nd amendment at all. Some are only capable of using words like strap on, six shooter, cowboy, boy toy, etc.....

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
I don't know of any women who put on something sexy and then wear a wire to record their anticipated raping. Can we please stop the raped woman analogies? They are stupid.

It's a blame the victim analogy. You still can't figure it out can you? You keep trying to twist my analogy into something it isn't. YOU FAIL again.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Landj wrote:
i only WISH there was a camera and or recorder in the room with me when it happened. i thank god that there was another person. even though she was asleep, ironically at the time it started so was i.... she is the one person that can actually place that everyone was there. the rest is up to a he said she said he thought she thought.

now im stuck with an i know what happened and a narcissistic jerk who, while i refuse to read his statement, probably thinks i asked for it or it was consensual. fortunately i have MANY things on my side, so im not too concerned about what garbage he wants to spew... but back to the video/audio - i could only wish for it.

until someones rights have been violated to a degree that they believe is truly unacceptable, they will never understand. i was in the same boat until it happened to me. its amazing how experience changes perspective.

Careful, if you keep posting about this, Matt will be blaming you shortly. Sorry you had to experience what you went through.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Landj's picture

gpi, see thats where what i was talking about earlier comes in to play.

i sat down with the people who matter to me most. i made the best decision based on my needs and true beliefs to myself.

i dont care who wants to blame me. i know it wasnt my fault, and thats what matters.

thats why i mentioned earlier, no one is going to be 100% supportive and to try and convince adults otherwise is insane. very few adults will change their opinions on things until they go through the actual experience.

its this way with politics, drug addicts, how to raise your children, the list goes on and on... people believe what they want.

Matt Benatar's picture
Matt Benatar's picture

GPI wrote:
Landj wrote:
i only WISH there was a camera and or recorder in the room with me when it happened. i thank god that there was another person. even though she was asleep, ironically at the time it started so was i.... she is the one person that can actually place that everyone was there. the rest is up to a he said she said he thought she thought.

now im stuck with an i know what happened and a narcissistic jerk who, while i refuse to read his statement, probably thinks i asked for it or it was consensual. fortunately i have MANY things on my side, so im not too concerned about what garbage he wants to spew... but back to the video/audio - i could only wish for it.

until someones rights have been violated to a degree that they believe is truly unacceptable, they will never understand. i was in the same boat until it happened to me. its amazing how experience changes perspective.

Careful, if you keep posting about this, Matt will be blaming you shortly. Sorry you had to experience what you went through.

That is an unfair statement of my character and an inappropriate comparison of her experience and Viper's. I expect an apology. I'm not joking at all.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Lauraska's picture

Landj, you are new here. This discussion has been going on for some time in many threads. The confrontation with police that is the subject of this lawsuit was a) orchestrated by the plaintiff as he purposely open carried in the hopes of getting stopped and then recorded the incident solely for the purpose of initiating legal action and b) it occurred at a time when PPD officers were being trained (albeit mistakenly) under the assumption that OC was illegal. The cop was following a procedure he thought was legit. If he was rough or rude or forceful, that's a separate case unrelated to the underlying reason for the stop since it would be unacceptable to treat a citizen that way in any case.

Again, the rape analogy is disgusting and wrong. Viper went out that day hoping to be stopped and now cries victim. It is absolutely nothing like a woman who is unwillingly forced into a sexual encounter and then vilified in court. It's astonishing that ANYONE would justify an analogy like that.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

sdm's picture

Expecting a genuine apology on the Internet is like expecting water to not be wet.

From welfare to Mayfair.

Landj's picture

New here or not, someone trying to trap the police or not...

The officer did something illegal!

If he was being taught to act that way, then maybe he is to be left off of the hook and whoever was teaching him needs to be held responsible.

To me it doesn't matter how someone was caught. If you get caught, then you were doing it. And in this case, someone got caught, however the tactic, doing something illegal.

GPI's picture

Lauraska wrote:
Landj, you are new here. This discussion has been going on for some time in many threads. The confrontation with police that is the subject of this lawsuit was a) orchestrated by the plaintiff as he purposely open carried in the hopes of getting stopped and then recorded the incident solely for the purpose of initiating legal action and b) it occurred at a time when PPD officers were being trained (albeit mistakenly) under the assumption that OC was illegal. The cop was following a procedure he thought was legit. If he was rough or rude or forceful, that's a separate case unrelated to the underlying reason for the stop since it would be unacceptable to treat a citizen that way in any case.

Again, the rape analogy is disgusting and wrong. Viper went out that day hoping to be stopped and now cries victim. It is absolutely nothing like a woman who is unwillingly forced into a sexual encounter and then vilified in court. It's astonishing that ANYONE would justify an analogy like that.

You're a twister like Matt. No one ever made a rape analogy. The analogy was about blaming the victim, as you and others have done here with Viper, and as defense attorneys often do with rape victims.

No one ever compared the act of rape with Viper's rights being violated. If that did occur, the comparison would be disgusting as you stated.

Once again so you are clear and understand, the analogy from the beginning was about blaming victims. There was never an analogy about the act of rape and illegal police detentions. It's really not that hard to understand, unless you keep trying to twist it into something it isn't.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Leo's picture

Lauraska wrote:
The confrontation with police that is the subject of this lawsuit was a) orchestrated by the plaintiff as he purposely open carried in the hopes of getting stopped and then recorded the incident solely for the purpose of initiating legal action and b) it occurred at a time when PPD officers were being trained (albeit mistakenly) under the assumption that OC was illegal. The cop was following a procedure he thought was legit. If he was rough or rude or forceful, that's a separate case unrelated to the underlying reason for the stop since it would be unacceptable to treat a citizen that way in any case.

Whether he orchestrated it or not is immaterial to the underlying rights violation.

Many people "orchestrate" arrests and incidents when they're protesting a policy or law. Who cares if they do? It doesn't make the point less valid.

Furthermore, it's completely immaterial if an officer is operating under a mistaken assumption that he's in compliance with the law. Police are wrong a lot. We shouldn't suffer from officers' ignorance.

The stop was illegal. A law-abiding citizen was arrested and his property seized without cause.

Finally, even if Viper is a Class-A suburban cowboy and GPI's posts here are meant only to inflame your passions, that doesn't matter to the case itself. Police were wrong. Viper's actions set them right. Things are now changing in a way that likely wouldn't have happened without this very public skirmish.

I'm glad for it.

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Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
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GPI's picture

Landj wrote:
New here or not, someone trying to trap the police or not...

The officer did something illegal!

Winner winner chicken dinner!!!!

Landj wrote:
If he was being taught to act that way, then maybe he is to be left off of the hook and whoever was teaching him needs to be held responsible.

BINGO! The City/PPD should be held responsible. The officers may or may not be liable, not sure.

Landj wrote:
To me it doesn't matter how someone was caught. If you get caught, then you were doing it. And in this case, someone got caught, however the tactic, doing something illegal.

You make too much sense to be a regular poster on here. I'm actually surprised you're able to see past the gun and make a sound judgement based on the facts. Based on the posts here the thought process usually goes something like this....

Gun-Me don't like gun-Anyone with gun bad-PPD good-PPD meet man with gun-Man with gun wrong, PPD right

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Leo's picture

GPI wrote:
blah blah blah

Your poke-in-the-eye behavior is not endearing and it's not going to win you friends, irrespective of the merits of your position.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
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Lauraska's picture

Leo, I'm not actually defending the police action OR saying he shouldn't be compensated for the violation of his right. I am merely arguing about the idiocy of the "whoa is me, the poor victim" plea. I'd have more respect for this situation if he'd just acknowledge what it was - an activist demonstration. He knew the police were misinterpreting the law and using it to unjustly violate civil rights of citizens and he took action to show it and have evidence to prove it in court. That's great. Turning around and then crying that his situation is like the plight of a rape victim is pathetic. If I pulled off something like this, I'd want to be seen as a proactive member of society, not as a victim.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

GPI's picture

Lauraska wrote:
Leo, I'm not actually defending the police action OR saying he shouldn't be compensated for the violation of his right. I am merely arguing about the idiocy of the "whoa is me, the poor victim" plea. I'd have more respect for this situation if he'd just acknowledge what it was - an activist demonstration. He knew the police were misinterpreting the law and using it to unjustly violate civil rights of citizens and he took action to show it and have evidence to prove it in court. That's great. Turning around and then crying that his situation is like the plight of a rape victim is pathetic. If I pulled off something like this, I'd want to be seen as a proactive member of society, not as a victim.

This is so full of fail I don't know where to start. The one thing I will say though is that when your rights are violated, you become a victim whether you want to or not. No one ever said "whoa is me" in regards to Viper. You completely fabricated that. I'm starting to believe this is a reading comprehension issue with you.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
blah blah blah

Your poke-in-the-eye behavior is not endearing and it's not going to win you friends, irrespective of the merits of your position.

I'm not concerned with eye poking. From the beginning of what Viper has endured, I'm here simply on the merits.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Leo's picture

You understand that eye-poking can adversely affect even the most meritorious cases?

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Matt Benatar's picture

The way the police behaved during the initial arrest is pretty unremarkable. The machismo of both the officers and Viper was audible, and embarrassing. I wish Mark was more honest about this being a rights demonstration instead of playing babe in the woods. It makes him look like a manipulative jerk. He should be more honest and forthcoming, if not at the time of his arrest, at least afterward. If he'd said that he was openly carrying to promote awareness, that would come off as a lot more coherent than personal comfort, especially while hiding a recorder.
As far as the police were (incorrectly) instructed, he was breaking the law. We all now know that's not the case. The level of disrespect went both ways. If GPI ever read any threads that weren't about guns, he might know that I'm not a cheerleader for the PPD. (I do, however, find it very off-putting that he continues to use the term po-po. It only exacerbates the repulsion to all of his posts.)
What's much more concerning is that the police went after him after he posted the audio of his arrest on YouTube and shared it on those cute little sites where everybody congratulates each other for owning guns. That was bullying, and a misappropriation of the police resources that they are always so eager to use as an excuse for their general lack of response. THAT is worthy of ACLU support, not compromised comfort of a concealed holster.
No eating crow and no betting money. Just discuss it without being so intolerable and destroying clarity with all the ridiculous hyperbole and vindictive demeanor.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Leo's picture

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
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Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
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215.385.5291

Leo's picture

GPI wrote:
Lauraska wrote:
Leo, I'm not actually defending the police action OR saying he shouldn't be compensated for the violation of his right. I am merely arguing about the idiocy of the "whoa is me, the poor victim" plea. I'd have more respect for this situation if he'd just acknowledge what it was - an activist demonstration. He knew the police were misinterpreting the law and using it to unjustly violate civil rights of citizens and he took action to show it and have evidence to prove it in court. That's great. Turning around and then crying that his situation is like the plight of a rape victim is pathetic. If I pulled off something like this, I'd want to be seen as a proactive member of society, not as a victim.

This is so full of fail I don't know where to start. The one thing I will say though is that when your rights are violated, you become a victim whether you want to or not. No one ever said "whoa is me" in regards to Viper. You completely fabricated that. I'm starting to believe this is a reading comprehension issue with you.

While few have ever said "woah is me", I bet some have said "woe is me".

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

GPI's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
The way the police behaved during the initial arrest is pretty unremarkable. The machismo of both the officers and Viper was audible, and embarrassing. I wish Mark was more honest about this being a rights demonstration instead of playing babe in the woods. It makes him look like a manipulative jerk. He should be more honest and forthcoming, if not at the time of his arrest, at least afterward. If he'd said that he was openly carrying to promote awareness, that would come off as a lot more coherent than personal comfort, especially while hiding a recorder.
As far as the police were (incorrectly) instructed, he was breaking the law. We all now know that's not the case. The level of disrespect went both ways. If GPI ever read any threads that weren't about guns, he might know that I'm not a cheerleader for the PPD. (I do, however, find it very off-putting that he continues to use the term po-po. It only exacerbates the repulsion to all of his posts.)
What's much more concerning is that the police went after him after he posted the audio of his arrest on YouTube and shared it on those cute little sites where everybody congratulates each other for owning guns. That was bullying, and a misappropriation of the police resources that they are always so eager to use as an excuse for their general lack of response. THAT is worthy of ACLU support, not compromised comfort of a concealed holster.
No eating crow and no betting money. Just discuss it without being so intolerable and destroying clarity with all the ridiculous hyperbole and vindictive demeanor.

Your post was a good read, until you couldn't control yourself and said this.....

Matt Benatar wrote:
shared it on those cute little sites where everybody congratulates each other for owning guns.

Then out of the other side of your mouth, this comes out a few sentences later.....

Matt Benatar wrote:
Just discuss it without being so intolerable and destroying clarity with all the ridiculous hyperbole and vindictive demeanor.

So I guess you really mean, do as I say, not as I do?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Landj's picture

Leo - you just went and poked fun at others misfortunes..

I'm sorry! I could not resist!

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:

Where is the picture Leo?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Kenzo wrote:
I think it is 100% stupid to OC in Philadelphia. I know it's 100% legal to, but one does not effect the other.

Yeah... blowhard from the suburbs wants to teach the PPD a lesson openly carrying to an Auto Zone way up in Upper Torresdale because it's so badarse up there. That will win over Philadelphians.

And it was due to this incident that Harrisburg is now drafting the "Viper Law" which will severely punish cities like Philadelphia that do anything that remotely goes near the PA Uniform Firearms Act by allowing civil litigants to pursue large monetary rewards from cities that try to write local laws that play in the grey area of the PAUFA.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Cities like Philadelphia, townships, and boroughs have been violating the UFA with impunity for years. Now they will be held accountable. What happens to citizens when they violate the law? Municipal governments should be held to the same standard. I cannot wait until this passes!

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Kenzo's picture

What would be fun: Philadelphia does what it wants anyway, is slapped with fines out the wazoo, pays them, then defaults in Chapter 9 bankruptcy which requires the Commonwealth to bail it out.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

GPI's picture

Kenzo wrote:
What would be fun: Philadelphia does what it wants anyway, is slapped with fines out the wazoo, pays them, then defaults in Chapter 9 bankruptcy which requires the Commonwealth to bail it out.

As long as my check clears, keep passing all the illegal ordinances you want.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
You understand that eye-poking can adversely affect even the most meritorious cases?

If Viper himself was doing the eye poking, I would agree. I'm not a plaintiff in the suit.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Leo's picture

GPI wrote:
Leo wrote:
You understand that eye-poking can adversely affect even the most meritorious cases?

If Viper himself was doing the eye poking, I would agree. I'm not a plaintiff in the suit.

You're hurting your cause. Which directly affects how the public sees Viper's case.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
Leo wrote:
You understand that eye-poking can adversely affect even the most meritorious cases?

If Viper himself was doing the eye poking, I would agree. I'm not a plaintiff in the suit.

You're hurting your cause. Which directly affects how the public sees Viper's case.

So I'm tainting the jury pool?

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Kenzo wrote:
What would be fun: Philadelphia does what it wants anyway, is slapped with fines out the wazoo, pays them, then defaults in Chapter 9 bankruptcy which requires the Commonwealth to bail it out.

They will push hard for a settlement to avoid the embarrassment of a trial, and unfortunately taxpayers like you and I will have to foot the bill because of an ignorant police department led by an arrogant commissioner and a hostile DA. Nice.....So proud to be a Philadelphia resident.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

sdm wrote:
Expecting a genuine apology on the Internet is like expecting water to not be wet.

LOL. Let me know when you see those pigs flying across the sky!

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

GPI's picture

Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
Lauraska wrote:
Leo, I'm not actually defending the police action OR saying he shouldn't be compensated for the violation of his right. I am merely arguing about the idiocy of the "whoa is me, the poor victim" plea. I'd have more respect for this situation if he'd just acknowledge what it was - an activist demonstration. He knew the police were misinterpreting the law and using it to unjustly violate civil rights of citizens and he took action to show it and have evidence to prove it in court. That's great. Turning around and then crying that his situation is like the plight of a rape victim is pathetic. If I pulled off something like this, I'd want to be seen as a proactive member of society, not as a victim.

This is so full of fail I don't know where to start. The one thing I will say though is that when your rights are violated, you become a victim whether you want to or not. No one ever said "whoa is me" in regards to Viper. You completely fabricated that. I'm starting to believe this is a reading comprehension issue with you.

While few have ever said "woah is me", I bet some have said "woe is me".

That was a re-quote of what she typed.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

th's picture

GPI wrote:
Leo wrote:
While few have ever said "woah is me", I bet some have said "woe is me".

That was a re-quote of what she typed.

Really? "She said it first." That's where we are now?

You wanna dance? LET'S DANCE!

Leo's picture

GPI wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
What would be fun: Philadelphia does what it wants anyway, is slapped with fines out the wazoo, pays them, then defaults in Chapter 9 bankruptcy which requires the Commonwealth to bail it out.

They will push hard for a settlement to avoid the embarrassment of a trial, and unfortunately taxpayers like you and I will have to foot the bill because of an ignorant police department led by an arrogant commissioner and a hostile DA. Nice.....So proud to be a Philadelphia resident.

You can move. Then you can open carry with abandon.

Lest you think it's any better in the counties, I was blacklisted from the DA's office in Montco for CCing to a summer internship and checking my firearm at the Courthouse, as required by PaUFA. I had always done this whenever I had to go to the courthouse before without event.

The DA & her first assistant were not happy with me.

I determined that day that I never wanted to be a DA.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

Matt Benatar's picture

Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
What would be fun: Philadelphia does what it wants anyway, is slapped with fines out the wazoo, pays them, then defaults in Chapter 9 bankruptcy which requires the Commonwealth to bail it out.

They will push hard for a settlement to avoid the embarrassment of a trial, and unfortunately taxpayers like you and I will have to foot the bill because of an ignorant police department led by an arrogant commissioner and a hostile DA. Nice.....So proud to be a Philadelphia resident.

You can move. Then you can open carry with abandon.

Lest you think it's any better in the counties, I was blacklisted from the DA's office in Montco for CCing to a summer internship and checking my firearm at the Courthouse, as required by PaUFA. I had always done this whenever I had to go to the courthouse before without event.

The DA & her first assistant were not happy with me.

I determined that day that I never wanted to be a DA.

It's disappointing that you were blacklisted, but I'm curious. Why were you carrying? Please don't respond with it being your right, unless your sole motive was to exercise your right, which is fine, if that's the case. Is there a benefit to having a firearm on you on the way to and from the courthouse? I'm honestly curious.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Leo's picture

Matt Benatar wrote:
Leo wrote:
GPI wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
What would be fun: Philadelphia does what it wants anyway, is slapped with fines out the wazoo, pays them, then defaults in Chapter 9 bankruptcy which requires the Commonwealth to bail it out.

They will push hard for a settlement to avoid the embarrassment of a trial, and unfortunately taxpayers like you and I will have to foot the bill because of an ignorant police department led by an arrogant commissioner and a hostile DA. Nice.....So proud to be a Philadelphia resident.

You can move. Then you can open carry with abandon.

Lest you think it's any better in the counties, I was blacklisted from the DA's office in Montco for CCing to a summer internship and checking my firearm at the Courthouse, as required by PaUFA. I had always done this whenever I had to go to the courthouse before without event.

The DA & her first assistant were not happy with me.

I determined that day that I never wanted to be a DA.

It's disappointing that you were blacklisted, but I'm curious. Why were you carrying? Please don't respond with it being your right, unless your sole motive was to exercise your right, which is fine, if that's the case. Is there a benefit to having a firearm on you on the way to and from the courthouse? I'm honestly curious.

Self defense.

Generally, I was carrying 100% of the time then and had a daily commute from the city to Norristown. Leaving without it was like leaving without my wallet and cell phone. It didn't cross my mind that the chief prosecuting body would have a problem with employees or interns legally carrying two and from work and checking at the courthouse door, as any other civilian would do.

I am not really disappointed. It was a good first lesson in why I didn't want to be a DA, which was reinforced over that summer. Funny, because I had previously thought I wanted to work there.

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

GPI's picture

I'm a little disappointed at the settlement because I was looking forward to Pat Link's deposition and/or courtroom testimony. The OC letter he authored is still ALIVE!!!

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

dan

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody