Are you a fishtown.us hypocrite? Episode 3.

If you fought against Sugarhouse being built, cried about all the doomsday scenarios it would cause, and criticized the neighbors who decided to negotiate instead of fight but you are now enjoying all the neighborhood improvements and programs funded by the Penn Treaty Special Services District, then you might be a fishtown.us hypocrite.

Coder's picture

Or I might just be someone who doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Did I miss episode 2?

Kenzo's picture

Is this a new form of trolling, the Jeff Foxworthy edition?

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Newcomer's picture

Sugarhouse didn't exactly pave the streets with gold -- what improvements am I enjoying?

austen's picture

Flags.

HAZMAT's picture

$20,000 for newspaper computers

WOOOPPPP DEEEEEEE FREAKING DO!

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Coder's picture

They bring a wagon full of quarters to my house every night...didn't you guys sign up for that?

lighterthief's picture

well EKNA was left out of the SSD so I am enjoying squat. Never opposed or supported the slots box, overall it has had about the same impact as Dave and Busters. Strikes me as stupid location but whatever. My main complaint against the Anti-Casino contingent is that they were never gonna stop it but they did make sure we got a sucky boring itty bitty casino rather than an interesting one.

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

Newcomer's picture

lighterthief wrote:
My main complaint against the Anti-Casino contingent is that they were never gonna stop it but they did make sure we got a sucky boring itty bitty casino rather than an interesting one.

That's what they claimed but I don't know how incredibly awesome it was going to be had it not been delayed.

stbenjamin's picture

I got to enjoy such laughable proposals as street cleaning on Richmond St. Seriously, it was like they couldn't find anyone to take the money for anything good so they wanted to try to bribe the neighbors.

Also, I moved here after it was a done deal. Which means I am just above a non-citizen renter I guess (I have my green card?)

dan

Coder wrote:
Did I miss episode 2?

apparently we all did.
http://fishtown.us/content/forum/are-you-fishtownus-hypocrite-episode-2

Godwin was basically a Nazi.

Coder's picture

I was always quite amazed at the how they were told they could build, spent the money, etc, and then had the city who originally told them they were wanted, screw them in court for YEARS....
It just showed everyone how backstabbing politics in Philly can be.
Aren't they supposed to start building again soon?

HAZMAT's picture

Very true Thief !
Where are the neon signs and frigging palm trees they all said where coming hah?
O wait 5th. St.got them all!

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

lighterthief's picture

Newcomer wrote:
That's what they claimed but I don't know how incredibly awesome it was going to be had it not been delayed.

It would have been super awesome - upside down roller coasters, synchronized fountains with pirate ship light shows, a revolving restaurant, a full scale reproduction of Milan's Galleria, a 24 hr live production of "Cats", and it's very own Wegmans - don't mess with my delusions of what could have been!

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

Kotter's picture

Oh yea maybe we shoud have put a Wal-Mart there or perhaps a dog park.

Heavens to Betsy

HAZMAT's picture

This should be the permanent motor for fishtown. Us

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

austen's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
This should be the permanent motor for fishtown. Us

I don't even know what this means, but I like it.

Newcomer's picture

austen wrote:
Flags.

The flags do fill an aesthetic void, for sure.

HAZMAT's picture

Lol auto correct sucks ..
Moto !
Thief's comment.
Don't mess with my delusions of what could have been. !
Was beautiful!

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

george's picture

What neighborhood improvements? Banners?

I guess you could argue the steady stream of the elderly, wheelchair-bound, and poverty-stricken to and from the glamorous excitement of Sugarhouse has at least slowed traffic on Delaware. Or not.

Coder's picture

Sure screwed up the trolleys.

Kenzo's picture

Yeah but now after 6:00PM you can get a free shuttle from Center City to the Barbary and Morgan's Pier. Now would wouldn't want that??!

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

ronchito's picture

Got my first up-close look at one of those banner flag things the other day. Hilariously awful. "Fishtown History: Generations of History" in Eddie Bauer hunter green. It screams Main Street, Chester County.

dmandy's picture

Coder wrote:
Sure screwed up the trolleys.

The plan for the trollys was in place before sugarhouse. it has nothing to do with the casino and everything to do with the work on 95. Sugarhouse just got lucky.

Neilpuck's picture

It was a huge chunk of money from the PTSSD that helped Hetzell's finish their improvements, the Cemmo, and also Kearny School, where some of your children go and nearly all of the senior centers of the area received funding. While I may not agree with all of their choices for recipients and supported projects, there are more than a few worthy groups that received funding. All of which I would say have benefited the community.

stein's picture

Fishtown History: Generations of History. Historic Things Happened Here. Super historical. HISTORY

Ken Milano (before he went and edited this comment out to avoid the consequences of having wrote it) wrote:
I don’t have much sympathy for renters, for me, they are non citizens

Coder's picture

Neilpuck wrote:
It was a huge chunk of money from the PTSSD that helped Hetzell's finish their improvements, the Cemmo, and also Kearny School, where some of your children go and nearly all of the senior centers of the area received funding. While I may not agree with all of their choices for recipients and supported projects, there are more than a few worthy groups that received funding. All of which I would say have benefited the community.

Yes, the PTSSD has been more than kind to the Fishtown AC.

dmandy's picture

Neilpuck wrote:
It was a huge chunk of money from the PTSSD that helped Hetzell's finish their improvements, the Cemmo, and also Kearny School, where some of your children go and nearly all of the senior centers of the area received funding. While I may not agree with all of their choices for recipients and supported projects, there are more than a few worthy groups that received funding. All of which I would say have benefited the community.

Neil, do you know where I could find out more info about the projects. I did get an answer from the board about the grent to the Spirit but that was all.

Neilpuck's picture

dmandy wrote:
Neil, do you know where I could find out more info about the projects. I did get an answer from the board about the grent to the Spirit but that was all.

Donna, I was able to see a list of the grantees on their website, but I'm not sure if they publish a formal report outlining applications, approvals and project descriptions. http://penntreatyssd.com/pgallery.html

2014 york's picture

Can't some of that money be spent on neon signs? Everyone loves a good neon sign. TRENTON MAKES for example. I see a huge arch across Frankford and Girard with a massive neon fish.

dmandy's picture

Neilpuck wrote:
dmandy wrote:
Neil, do you know where I could find out more info about the projects. I did get an answer from the board about the grent to the Spirit but that was all.

Donna, I was able to see a list of the grantees on their website, but I'm not sure if they publish a formal report outlining applications, approvals and project descriptions. http://penntreatyssd.com/pgallery.html

Thanks. I already saw that but they don't have any more info. I'm going to email the board again and see if i get any result.

steveeboy's picture

I got a crappy t-shirt that says "FACT" and some free barbecue and ice cream.

the priest who sold out the neighborhood got his sidewalk shoveled.

Maggie O'Brien got her own fiefdom cuz she didn't like the renters at FNA who failed to do her bidding.

and the dude that owns Liberties and always pimped for the casino gets to hand out the slush fund.

probably the only positive for me personally will be if jeffro gets a really hot quad core mac tower system to work on at the spirit, cuz then I can get some of his awesome t-shirts

Oh, I guess I also got some REALLY expensive banners that hang on poles.

Kotter's picture

Was the FREE BARBECUE and ICE CREAM good ?

Heavens to Betsy

dmandy's picture

steveeboy wrote:
Maggie O'Brien got her own fiefdom cuz she didn't like the renters at FNA who failed to do her bidding.

So tell me just what Maggie O'Brien got out of the whole deal. Do you even know or are you just throwing around the only name you know.

Pure_Fishtown's picture

dmandy wrote:
steveeboy wrote:
Maggie O'Brien got her own fiefdom cuz she didn't like the renters at FNA who failed to do her bidding.

So tell me just what Maggie O'Brien got out of the whole deal. Do you even know or are you just throwing around the only name you know.

So, Stevieboy, please answer dmandy 'cause I want to know, too. Let's here what you know about Maggie.

FREE Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Kenzo's picture

Oh boy here we go.

Coming soon: ORCA announces that if you shop at Thriftway or Wawa you can be in ORCA, as long as you acknowledge ORCA as the one true faith and FNA/FACT as heresy.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

austen's picture

You leave FNA out of this.

Come to Meet the Neighbors!

Imma gonna drive by every thread.

I'M JUST SAYING.

Frank Jones's picture

I wasn't in favor of it but it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be and I am glad they gave Kearney money. But does that make me a hypocrite? Even if it did; who cares?

It's not unreasonable to base your opinion on your experience. Then, you see what happens and you have a revised opinion based on new information. It would be pretty stupid to stick to an opinion, ignoring experience for fear that a stranger might call you a hypocrite. Better to be a hypocrite than a know-nothing.

It sounds like the original poster is making a pitiful attempt at feeling superior.

(all I am saying is it is not as bad as I thought it would be. still not crazy about it.)

stein wrote:
It is nice to be so privileged that you can be oblivious to a pretty popular stereotype in the canon of racism.

Newcomer's picture

Neilpuck wrote:
It was a huge chunk of money from the PTSSD that helped Hetzell's finish their improvements, the Cemmo, and also Kearny School, where some of your children go and nearly all of the senior centers of the area received funding. While I may not agree with all of their choices for recipients and supported projects, there are more than a few worthy groups that received funding. All of which I would say have benefited the community.

Kearny's addition had been in the works for years and not at all funded by PTSSD money [unlike our local newspaper, the school's request for money for new computers was rejected]. A more recent proposal submitted by the Kearny Home and School Association was successful -- $15K will go towards a conflict resolution program called Playworks.

dan

I disagreed, and still disagree, with Maggie O'Brien over Sugarhouse. I also disagree with making a second civic association. That said, I've never seen any evidence that Maggie O'Brien has done anything other than what she believed was in the best interest of the neighborhood.

Godwin was basically a Nazi.

Kenzo's picture

I was still in Center City back when the day it was discovered that DiCicco somehow got "saddled" with the two casino sitings (guess whut people... he didn't get "saddled" with it, come on). Over on PS the wild predilections stretched as far as Fishtown would be obliterated off the face of the Earth and replaced with a litany of flashing neon signs advertising massage parlors, check cashing and pawn shops (the overlay was created to kill that argument). Then it rapidly switched to land values would depreciate to zero.

On the contrary, 19125 has bucked the national trend of decimating property value. Then there was the permanent 24/7/365 gridlock expected, that didn't happen (and hey, most everyone takes the 42 into Atlantic City and it's never backed up for miles when you're actually near AC, and they got larger/better casinos with more visitors).

I'm casino-neutral. It's not a great idea for a use for the waterfront (actually, it's a waste of a use---who hangs out on their riverfront patio?) It's a culinary void--I wish there were some destination restaurants there; I'd like to be able to go and eat lunch there and maybe play a few hands of blackjack on the way out. I live near the d**n thing and I've only been inside less than 10 times. It's too small and their minimums suck. But it's not like it's a crappy half-dead Vegas casino. It's a perfect time-killing outlet for bored tourists who aren't impressed by our art or "culture".

Sugarhouse also spurred action into people thinking "what the hell SHOULD we put on the river, since we've been ignoring it for 85 years?"

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Pure_Fishtown's picture

Soul Man wrote:
I disagreed, and still disagree, with Maggie O'Brien over Sugarhouse. I also disagree with making a second civic association. That said, I've never seen any evidence that Maggie O'Brien has done anything other than what she believed was in the best interest of the neighborhood.

Thank you for saying what you did, Dan. Maggie is a dear friend of mine who I've had the pleasure of knowing for over 20 years; she is a good woman who has done a hellva lot for this community.

FREE Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

steveeboy's picture

I have only lived in Fishtown for 9 years. So, the first time I ever heard of FACT or FACT leadership was when it was formed after they didn't get their way at the FNA.

fief·dom (ffdm)
n.
1. The estate or domain of a feudal lord.
2. Something over which one dominant person or group exercises control: "long the independent head of a powerful fiefdom within the Police Department" (David Burnham).

FACT is a fiefdom created by the King--Sugarhouse--for a person who provided loyalty and a service to the King.

Without Sugarhouse and the ongoing Sugarhouse largesse, there would be no FACT.

Contemporary media coverage of the creation of FACT noted the centrality of the casino and all the "help" they were providing Fishtown and various entities with "no strings attached"

http://planphilly.com/node/1572

But we know all this already.

I know we get lovely banners on Girard for$50k, but :

Did Sugarhouse ever release a list of how many jobs went to Fishtown residents?

How much money did local schools get from Sugarhouse?

How much were property taxes reduced as a result of Sugarhouse?

Is there any objective measure of how much money is extracted from the area's poor and elderly so that the true cost benefit analysis can be figured out?

Is Sugarhouse anything but a black hole on the waterfront sucking up dollars from those least able to afford to lose them?

If you didn't a get a job on the build cause you aren't in the local, you don't go to Mass at Holy Name, you don't have kids playing soccer, and and you don't really care if the "Geater with the Heater" happens to be DJing there, what exactly is the benefit of this money vacuum?

OTOH, I believe Sugarhouse does sponsor the Mummers Parade, and I guess that is one direct benefit I get since I sure do love the Mummers Parade.

But in essence, the cash is also controlled by people who supported the casino and all the money goes to the pet projects of those who provided political cover for DiCicco and Clarke and filled that square of "community support" for Sugarhouse.

I am not naive, I know this is how things work--especially in old school machine cities like Philly.

I do not mind garnering benefits for the community from the casino--especially since the overall claims about property taxes, wage taxes, school funding, etc. do not seem to have panned out.

--but don't insult our intelligence with the "best interests of the community" act or try to claim that some great service/benefit has been provided by the black hole on the Delaware.

dan

steveeboy wrote:
--but don't insult our intelligence with the "best interests of the community" act or try to claim that some great service/benefit has been provided by the black hole on the Delaware.

If you've lived here 9 years, you know I was one of the biggest voices against the casino. And, if you look at the media reports, I was the first and only voice speaking against it when DiCicco & NKCDC held their informational meetings before the sites were chosen. I still see the casino as one big pile of harm to the community.

My point, however, is that Maggie and many others honestly believed, and still do believe, the casino is more positive than negative.

Godwin was basically a Nazi.

steveeboy's picture

no one is arguing that point.

whether or not one's motives are "pure" does not impact whether one is right or wrong and whether such a question can be answered given the proper empirical data.

and spending $50k on some dumb banners doesn't lend credence to their side's definition of "best interest."

Pure_Fishtown's picture

One thing that I want to point out is that Philadelphia was NEVER included in lowering of property taxes from casino revenue; we are suppose to have gradual lowering of wage tax.

FREE Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

TLP's picture

I'm new enough here to have missed all the casino shenanigans. I think I've finally caught up on everything that went down, but I'm just trying to figure out what FACT does and is involved in now that the casino is built and running. I honestly didn't know they still existed until those banner went up.

dmandy's picture

steveeboy wrote:
no one is arguing that point.

whether or not one's motives are "pure" does not impact whether one is right or wrong and whether such a question can be answered given the proper empirical data.

and spending $50k on some dumb banners doesn't lend credence to their side's definition of "best interest."

You still haven't said what it is that Maggie got out of the whole deal. Did she get a job, a grant, did she benefit personally in any way from Sugarhouse? So how does she have her own little fiefdom? what exactly did she gain?
I've know Maggie for over 25 years and I don't know of anyone who has given more to this neighborhood. So lets hear all of your proper empirical data. I have a feeling that you really don't have any and you are just running your mouth. as we say around here, Put up or shut up

Coder's picture

The casino has held quite a few functions in the basement of Holy Name church, which regardless of how you feel about them, is nice for the kids.

dan

steveeboy wrote:
no one is arguing that point.

seemed somebody was. anyway...

Quote:
whether or not one's motives are "pure" does not impact whether one is right or wrong and whether such a question can be answered given the proper empirical data.

agreed. but it does impact whether someone accusing someone of impure motives is right or wrong.
if nobody is doing that, then all is copacetic.

Godwin was basically a Nazi.

steveeboy's picture

FACT is the fiefdom.

FACT pretty much duplicates other functions of FNA, with exception of casino stuff.

FACT has nothing going on if not for Sugarhouse sponsorship/resources.

A quick glance at FACT website and FB page finds much content related to/sponsored by Sugarhouse and links to other casino-connected people and businesses--like the Liberties guy who now gets to control where money from Sugarhouse goes within the district.

Thus, it is pretty clear why the organization is around.

This can all be true with pure or malignant motives.

Again, I doubt it would be accepted with open arms if the next time FACT--or FNA, or ORCA, or EKNA --rejected something a new group was formed, funded--directly or indirectly--by the rejected entity, and then that new group became voice of neighborhood on the matter and suddenly it was claimed that this was indicative of community support.

all those t-shirts, all that ice cream, that fertilizer for the soccer field, the $50k spent on some phone pole signs, etc. is fine for those who benefit.

but I strongly suspect that far more money is being dumped into those slot machines than is coming back out.

But by all means, let's have a full accounting of all the great benefits we are receiving from the casino so we can fairly weigh who's view of "best interests" is correct.

At a minimum, let's find out how many local people work at the casino, that shouldn't be too hard.

Just search the payroll for the 19125 zip code.

And when is that wage tax going down again?

Kenzo's picture

Pure_Fishtown wrote:
One thing that I want to point out is that Philadelphia was NEVER included in lowering of property taxes from casino revenue; we are suppose to have gradual lowering of wage tax.

That was happening. But it has since been frozen as of this year and the lowering will continue to be frozen because of the wet fart SDP caused by Ackerman and since then.

The city-resident wage tax is at 3.9something and the commuter is at 3.4something. The reductions were infinitesimal amounts (my own before-tax wages increased by something like $50-$75 a year or thereabouts between increases).

Honestly, those should be the inverse of each other. City resident wage tax should always be lower than the commuter tax... but I guess since commuters park cars here they wind up paying more in the long haul and it goes indirectly to the schools (although a tiny mount) by being money-laundered through the state Republican patronage machine (also known by its other name, the Parking Authority).

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Pure_Fishtown's picture

I wouldn't label the PPA as a republican patronage machine because for years and years it was a democrate patronage machine. BTW, the republicans are almost nil in the city. It is all who you know and if the Dem is the right one you'll get in.

FREE Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

dmandy's picture

steveeboy wrote:
FACT is the fiefdom.

FACT pretty much duplicates other functions of FNA, with exception of casino stuff.

FACT has nothing going on if not for Sugarhouse sponsorship/resources.

A quick glance at FACT website and FB page finds much content related to/sponsored by Sugarhouse and links to other casino-connected people and businesses--like the Liberties guy who now gets to control where money from Sugarhouse goes within the district.

Thus, it is pretty clear why the organization is around.

This can all be true with pure or malignant motives.

Again, I doubt it would be accepted with open arms if the next time FACT--or FNA, or ORCA, or EKNA --rejected something a new group was formed, funded--directly or indirectly--by the rejected entity, and then that new group became voice of neighborhood on the matter and suddenly it was claimed that this was indicative of community support.

all those t-shirts, all that ice cream, that fertilizer for the soccer field, the $50k spent on some phone pole signs, etc. is fine for those who benefit.

but I strongly suspect that far more money is being dumped into those slot machines than is coming back out.

But by all means, let's have a full accounting of all the great benefits we are receiving from the casino so we can fairly weigh who's view of "best interests" is correct.

At a minimum, let's find out how many local people work at the casino, that shouldn't be too hard.

Just search the payroll for the 19125 zip code.

And when is that wage tax going down again?

I was about to write a way too long answer to your so call answer and then I asked myself WWMD (what would Maggie do). And Maggie would laugh in your face and say "Silly boy" and go back to being the good neighbor that she is.