Hooray methadone clinic coming to 19125

Kensington hospital moving methadone clinic to front and diamond sts. Seems this is going through NSCA and has all approvals. Is this not EKNA/FNA territory also? Why no joint meetings on this?
I'm not at all liking this people.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

bozoloper's picture

the clinic is currently operating at the hospital building at mascher and diamond, right?

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

HAZMAT's picture

If your not aware Diamond st. Turns into coral st.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

HAZMAT's picture

bozoloper wrote:
the clinic is currently operating at the hospital building at mascher and diamond, right?

Yes inside the hospital with security and under extreme surveillance.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

2014 york's picture

EKNA Territory, not FNA. Not liking it either.

HAZMAT's picture

EKNA really needs to step up on this. Front st will never ever recover if NSCA has its way with it. And quit sad they own vast tracks of this strip that's going to require vigilance.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

2014 york's picture

The building this is relocating to belongs to the hospital, from what I recall. I also seem to recall that the reasoning for moving the methadone clinic was to get the junkies away from the Hospital building that houses other medical services. I don't think NSCA owns any property on Front other than the Banks.

HAZMAT's picture

You might want to go cross check some addresses. They own Five lots and three old bank buildings. I would also like to know when this community meeting took place.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Lauraska's picture

Interesting. I didn't even know Kensington Hospital operated a methodone clinic, because all the junkies I see every single morning are heading west to get their legal, paid-for fix.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

bozoloper's picture

Lauraska wrote:
Interesting. I didn't even know Kensington Hospital operated a methodone clinic, because all the junkies I see every single morning are heading west to get their legal, paid-for fix.

i didn't know either until a week or two ago, this guy in the bar was ranting about it. it seems it's fairly well run, i've only ever heard one complaint about it.

if they're moving it because it makes the other patients from other offices in the building uncomfortable that doesn't seem to be a good sign, though.

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

HAZMAT's picture

The fact that it was operated in the hospital under strict rules of expulsion and arrest where the only things keeping it under control. You think this standard will be followed if it moved out?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

2014 york's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
You might want to go cross check some addresses. They own Five lots and three old bank buildings. I would also like to know when this community meeting took place.

Where is the 3rd bank? I'm not aware of any meetings. NSCA is not a legit Civic Association...you know that. Nothing is stopping the new Civic Association from holding a meeting.

I forgot to ask...Where are you getting this information. I've heard the rumor for about a year but haven't seen any activity in the Front/Diamond building. There is a building at Diamond and Howard that used to be a restaurant but now looks like a medical office. EKNA wouldn't have any say in what happens there.

This could be it?
BHS Pharmacy Inc
118 Diamond St, Philadelphia, PA 19122
(215) 739-2658

Kenzo's picture

If it stays west of Front nobody in '25 has any say but if it's on Front, we have all the say in the world whether Pat DeCarlo likes it or not.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

2014 york's picture

Kenzo wrote:
If it stays west of Front nobody in '25 has any say but if it's on Front, we have all the say in the world whether Pat DeCarlo likes it or not.

Well, that's not entirely the case. Nothing is stopping anyone from showing up at any public meeting and voicing an opinion. You may not be able to vote but this will have an effect on 19125, which is a legitimate concern.

HAZMAT's picture

Kenzo wrote:
If it stays west of Front nobody in '25 has any say but if it's on Front, we have all the say in the world whether Pat DeCarlo likes it or not.

It's right on the corner if front and diamond sts.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

HAZMAT's picture

Behavior health services pharmacy.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

Just got this back from Councilwoman Sanchez:

Quote:
Chris,

Kensington Hospital owns the building on Front Street and has for years tried to raise the money to reburish and provide better space for their clinic and patients.

Eileen Hause will be reaching out to all the groups to inform them of the plans.

I asked what property are they moving the clinic to, so I guess it looks like it will be coming to FrontStreet. Obviously everyone was cool with the original location because it was not at ground level and the waiting patients were pretty much locked up in the building.

My guess is wait and see what the plans are. I'll have to punch up the charts and see what parcels the hospital has.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

This is what Kensington Hospital owns:

128-40 DIAMOND ST
2100 N FRONT ST
2102-10 N FRONT ST
2101-03 N HOWARD ST
2040-42 WATERLOO ST

So we're talkin' about this mess:

View Larger Map

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

HAZMAT's picture

According to the director of environmental services. This thing is a go. Not a wait and see thing. Do that and we will have junkies camping in front st.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
According to the director of environmental services. This thing is a go. Not a wait and see thing. Do that and we will have junkies camping in front st.

If they're putting up a new building and all the junkies must sit inside the building under the same security as the last setup it won't be so bad.

But if it's gonna turn out like Parkside where people are coming/going and milling about while waiting to be seen, [EXPLETIVE DELETED] NO.

Nothing is more crappy than the junkie convention that forms outside of clinics early in the AM.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

HAZMAT's picture

They are rehabing the building in your photo I'm on my cell if you want i can text you the photos.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

rockoncherry's picture
2014 york's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
Behavior health services pharmacy.

This is showing up on Google Maps as the property on the South East corner of Diamond and Howard. The building was recently renovated with a waiting room in front. Looks very much like a clinic inside and definitely not a typical Pharmacy.

I have seen some evidence of work being done on the Front St property but noting substantial. I'd love to see the building rehabbed but not for this purpose.

Kenzo's picture

Judging by the response I got from the Councilwoman, I'm hazarding a guess that she's in favor of its relocation. I guess FNA and EKNA will be told what's up soon enough.

Yeah HAZMAT send over the reno pictures. I haven't posted anything to PDQ in a while and there's been quite a lot of activity this last month in MethadoneLand to cover, not just this clinic.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

2014 york's picture

The general feel I get is that ANY project that can be taxpayer funded is welcome in Norris Square. We should just change the name to Takerville.

HAZMAT's picture

why are these clinics never any place where they're needed. Put them in Southampton.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Lutherie's picture

Lauraska wrote:
Interesting. I didn't even know Kensington Hospital operated a methodone clinic, because all the junkies I see every single morning are heading west to get their legal, paid-for fix.

There is one down further on Girard and one on Columbia near 4th I believe. I think it depends where you live where they will send you.

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.

Kuishimbo's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
why are these clinics never any place where they're needed.

Because it would be kind of hard to operate the clinic directly on the Route 66 trolleybus.

How often do you have to replace the "I" key on your computer?

oldcomer55's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
why are these clinics never any place where they're needed. Put them in Southampton.

As long as percocets are out there the methodone clinics are needed everywhere.

HAZMAT's picture

I just can't wrap my head around a civic that not only supports blight and poverty. They promote and build an empire off it. Just mind boggling. And to think a council member is openly supporting this nonsense almost makes me want to run against this crap and knock it out of its box.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
This is what Kensington Hospital owns:

128-40 DIAMOND ST
2100 N FRONT ST
2102-10 N FRONT ST
2101-03 N HOWARD ST
2040-42 WATERLOO ST

So we're talkin' about this mess:

View Larger Map

If you pan the picture to the left, it looks like people aree already sitting there waiting for it to open.

HAZMAT's picture

loosie wrote:
Just what we need a bunch of zombies stumbling around the neighborhood scaring the children.

Kinda like a troll stumbling around the internet?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

oldcomer55's picture

I don't think there is an easy answer for this. In a way it does make sense to put a clinic where it's accessible to the area drug addicts. The area is loaded with them and they are often complained about on this site. If there is another, better solution let's come up with it. Otherwise this is sounding like a NIMBY situation.

HAZMAT's picture

I don't think it's nimby at all. I do think it needs to be monitored. And maybe negotiate saving a beautiful historic building.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

bingo's picture

isn't there one near tiffin on girard? there's usually people milling about over there, although near the donut shop & laundromat.

Kenzo's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Lutherie's picture

Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

So basically your upset that it is in your neighborhood. You wouldn't really give a crap if it was somewhere else.

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.

oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

If you don't want junkies in the neighborhood to get help, don't complain about them.

Kenzo's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

If you don't want junkies in the neighborhood to get help, don't complain about them.

You equivocate methadone as help? Hilarious.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

Lutherie wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

So basically your upset that it is in your neighborhood. You wouldn't really give a crap if it was somewhere else.

How many clinics have you lived next door to? Zero I take it?

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

HAZMAT's picture

If you wanna help people who can't even help themselves, take them home with you.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

If you don't want junkies in the neighborhood to get help, don't complain about them.

You equivocate methadone as help? Hilarious.

So you are also a medical expert, no end to your genius. I do not personally equivocate methadone as help, I leave it to the people in charge of that arena. Apparently they do since there are so many clinics. I'm just not a judgmental person who feels they are above other people who have problems...self inflicted or not.

oldcomer55's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
If you wanna help people who can't even help themselves, take them home with you.

I don't have to, we have clinics with trained professionals in them.

HAZMAT's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
HAZMAT wrote:
If you wanna help people who can't even help themselves, take them home with you.

I don't have to, we have clinics with trained professionals in them.

I don't care what program any one goes to. The court will never ever mandate sobriety. That's an independent action on the user's part, if they want sobriety they find it. Even if it was in the woods.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

Maybe we should protest AA and NA as well.

HAZMAT's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Maybe we should protest AA and NA as well.

If that's your real answer. I'm disappointed. Methadone is 99% court sanctioned.AA and NA are completely voluntary. And no court in the world can make any one go there. Actually if you don't want sobriety, they don't want you either.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Maybe we should protest AA and NA as well.

If that's your real answer. I'm disappointed. Methadone is 99% court sanctioned.AA and NA are completely voluntary. And no court in the world can make any one go there. Actually if you don't want sobriety, they don't want you either.

Drug and alcohol rehab are not always voluntary, many are court mandated.

HAZMAT's picture

That is called I.O.P. usually run by counselers and a physician. AA/NA Are basically the largest group of volunteer addicts helping other addicts . Totally different.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

Ok, we'll keep AA and NA because they are voluntary. I.O.P. and methadone clinics gotta go because they, for the most part aren't. Unless they are somewhere we can't see them because we live in the land of butterflies, rainbows and unicorns and the last thing we need to see is that. But while we are at it could someone do something about the horrible junkies, we don't want to see them either.

Kenzo's picture

There's plenty of room for methadone treatment in Frankford, and it's a great transit neighborhood.

Hell, open a methadone skyscraper.

Oh wait that's Frankford/Aria Hospital that's where a lot of the OD patients wind up.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

HAZMAT's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Ok, we'll keep AA and NA because they are voluntary. I.O.P. and methadone clinics gotta go because they, for the most part aren't. Unless they are somewhere we can't see them because we live in the land of butterflies, rainbows and unicorns and the last thing we need to see is that. But while we are at it could someone do something about the horrible junkies, we don't want to see them either.

kinda like making heroin illegal for some people and then the government making its own and giving it to others. Right?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
Yeah at the end of the day, methadone expansion isn't so much about helping people as it is about exploiting the medical billing machine.

Medicaid billing is the largest industry in the Frankford neighborhood. Get off at Margaret St. and have a look around.

The entire medical industry is about exploiting the medical billing machine. Get rid of percocet and half the methadone clinics will shut down. Clinics are needed in 19125 because people eat percs like pez and when the streets are dry the sickness comes. Your guns are pointed at the wrong target.

Kenzo's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
But while we are at it could someone do something about the horrible junkies, we don't want to see them either.

I have a permanent fix for junkies. Tell them there's some awesome junk at a warehouse in some shamehole somewhere and free cartons of Newports are there.

Toss in some canisters of Zyklon-B and shut the doors and after they're gone, set the place on fire until all the Hep-C ridden corpses are gone.

But you know, that's what Malaysia would probably want to do. That country executes drug users. Kind of a final solution, but there you have it.

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oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
But while we are at it could someone do something about the horrible junkies, we don't want to see them either.

I have a permanent fix for junkies. Tell them there's some awesome junk at a warehouse in some shamehole somewhere and free cartons of Newports are there.

Toss in some canisters of Zyklon-B and shut the doors and after they're gone, set the place on fire until all the Hep-C ridden corpses are gone.

But you know, that's what Malaysia would probably want to do. That country executes drug users. Kind of a final solution, but there you have it.

And you have a problem with Obama, simply amazing!!!!

Kenzo's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Yeah at the end of the day, methadone expansion isn't so much about helping people as it is about exploiting the medical billing machine.

Medicaid billing is the largest industry in the Frankford neighborhood. Get off at Margaret St. and have a look around.

The entire medical industry is about exploiting the medical billing machine. Get rid of percocet and half the methadone clinics will shut down. Clinics are needed in 19125 because people eat percs like pez and when the streets are dry the sickness comes. Your guns are pointed at the wrong target.

I thought most of the junkies were moving up to Mayfair because the rents were cheaper up there than they are down here where the rents are going up. By that alone, we don't need any new ones while the argument for more of them in the Northeast where the junkies are migrating to like zebras in the Serengeti...

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

oldcomer55's picture

Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Yeah at the end of the day, methadone expansion isn't so much about helping people as it is about exploiting the medical billing machine.

Medicaid billing is the largest industry in the Frankford neighborhood. Get off at Margaret St. and have a look around.

The entire medical industry is about exploiting the medical billing machine. Get rid of percocet and half the methadone clinics will shut down. Clinics are needed in 19125 because people eat percs like pez and when the streets are dry the sickness comes. Your guns are pointed at the wrong target.

I thought most of the junkies were moving up to Mayfair because the rents were cheaper up there than they are down here where the rents are going up. By that alone, we don't need any new ones while the argument for more of them in the Northeast where the junkies are migrating to like zebras in the Serengeti...

According to who?

Kenzo's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Yeah at the end of the day, methadone expansion isn't so much about helping people as it is about exploiting the medical billing machine.

Medicaid billing is the largest industry in the Frankford neighborhood. Get off at Margaret St. and have a look around.

The entire medical industry is about exploiting the medical billing machine. Get rid of percocet and half the methadone clinics will shut down. Clinics are needed in 19125 because people eat percs like pez and when the streets are dry the sickness comes. Your guns are pointed at the wrong target.

I thought most of the junkies were moving up to Mayfair because the rents were cheaper up there than they are down here where the rents are going up. By that alone, we don't need any new ones while the argument for more of them in the Northeast where the junkies are migrating to like zebras in the Serengeti...

According to who?

HAZMAT: Is he really this clueless?

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oldcomer55's picture

Are you that blind? There are no junkies in 19125?

Kenzo's picture

oldcomer55 wrote:
Are you that blind? There are no junkies in 19125?

There's junkies in 19125???!?!?!!!!!!11eleventy

LAWD HAVE MERCY!

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Leo's picture

Can we lock this thread yet?

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

oldcomer55's picture

Leo wrote:
Can we lock this thread yet?

No need, I'm done with the high and mighty

Kenzo's picture

If we just had a methadone clinic at Gaul and Suskie than that would solve our crime problems.

Let's start a petition!

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kuishimbo's picture

Kenzo wrote:

Oh wait that's Frankford/Aria Hospital that's where a lot of the OD patients wind up.

No, you go to Frankford Frankford if you are on PCP. They don't test for it there. Everybody knows that.

How often do you have to replace the "I" key on your computer?

Lutherie's picture

Kenzo wrote:
Lutherie wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

So basically your upset that it is in your neighborhood. You wouldn't really give a crap if it was somewhere else.

How many clinics have you lived next door to? Zero I take it?

As many as you.

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.

Kenzo's picture

I lived steps from 1 that had a 400 patient a day load. It's since been moved from Chestnut St. because the landlord saw gentrification and dollar signs and terminated their rent and kicked them out.

So which clinic did you live near?

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Chris in Kenzington's picture

Let's look at the bright side of a methadone clinic going in... if anyone ever needs some extra cash at least you'll be able to sell your urine to the junkies who have to pass a pee test to get their legal fix.

Coder's picture

Methodone clinics are sham's. They are almost entirely run by unethical people, who have no trouble keeping you on a drug they give you for years...and years...and years.
For every one person serious about getting off drugs, there are thirty who are there only because that's how they justify the SSI check. No program, no check.
It's not stopping anything, and only serves as a HQ for all the Klonopin and any and everything else you want.
Trust me. I stand down the block from one everyday waiting for a bus. The business going on outside is ridiculous, not to mention the fights, etc., and collateral damage it does to surrounding business.
@Kenzo-you mention Gaul & Susque on more time, and I'm coming after ya!

Kuishimbo's picture

Chris in Kenzington wrote:
Let's look at the bright side of a methadone clinic going in... if anyone ever needs some extra cash at least you'll be able to sell your urine to the junkies who have to pass a pee test to get their legal fix.

And we will be able to buy monthly transpasses for $20!

How often do you have to replace the "I" key on your computer?

Chris in Kenzington's picture

This reminds me of when I used to do masonry work at the Jersey shore. I worked with a couple of heroin addicts who would hit up the Asbury meth clinic every morning. My brother would sell his pee to them so they could pass a test. They'd do a cup of methadone at the clinic, and also get a couple to-go bottles. They'd keep one bottle, and sell the other to a junkie outside. By 3pm when the meth was all worn off, the one masons feet would start killing him and his nose would be running like a waterfall. when we were done working around 430, he'd come over to me and say "Let's do some business". The Bank of Chris would then loan said junkie $50, but I'd charge $10 interest. On friday, anyone who gave out a loan would collect their share directly from the boss when we got our pay. If the addict waited 1 extra day in getting cash to me, I'd hit him with another $10 in interest. Worked out nice.

HAZMAT's picture

I'm going to say this again at the risk of sounding redundant. Methadone is government heroin. You don't want drug dealers in the neighborhood?. "Unless that drug dealer is the government". RIGHT?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Horde's picture

I have siblings who have been in the PROGRAM fro going on fifthteen years and in that time i have come to the conclusion that this form of rehab has zero impact on sobriety. It is as some have said pretty much just a place to go for addicts who need more excuses for their behavior. On a few occasions i took said siblings to a clinic near the zoo and if anyone would have seen what goes on at these places they would understand my point of view, its a waste of time and only causes more harm to the people who have to deal on a daily basis with the addict while changing nothing for the addict, in fact i think most clinics are delaying sobriety for these people. Just my two cents.

Kenzo's picture

The clinic on Girard is kinda like Promises in Malibu... the drug "rehab" for the fallen-from-grace actors who really don't want to get better but need time to decompress so they can read their next screenplay and mem their lines without going to parties and doing lines.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

Chris in Kenzington wrote:
This reminds me of when I used to do masonry work at the Jersey shore. I worked with a couple of heroin addicts who would hit up the Asbury meth clinic every morning. My brother would sell his pee to them so they could pass a test. They'd do a cup of methadone at the clinic, and also get a couple to-go bottles. They'd keep one bottle, and sell the other to a junkie outside. By 3pm when the meth was all worn off, the one masons feet would start killing him and his nose would be running like a waterfall. when we were done working around 430, he'd come over to me and say "Let's do some business". The Bank of Chris would then loan said junkie $50, but I'd charge $10 interest. On friday, anyone who gave out a loan would collect their share directly from the boss when we got our pay. If the addict waited 1 extra day in getting cash to me, I'd hit him with another $10 in interest. Worked out nice.

You did Structured Finance for junkies? How'd you manage to keep all your teeth whenever they got their mental loan balance messed up an accuse you of stealing?

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

NEPAhenry's picture

I justed emailed with William Gonzalez at NSCA, he says that there is no such zoning case coming before NSCA, and he is not aware of any such project.
Im not 100% sure, but I would imagine that such a use would not be of right and would require a use variance...

HAZMAT's picture

NEPAhenry wrote:
I justed emailed with William Gonzalez at NSCA, he says that there is no such zoning case coming before NSCA, and he is not aware of any such project.
Im not 100% sure, but I would imagine that such a use would not be of right and would require a use variance...

Good old fast Willy Gonzales. Hahaha was that a direct response or was it crowed sourced and filtered for the public?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

rockoncherry's picture

Kenzo wrote:
The clinic on Girard is kinda like Promises in Malibu... the drug "rehab" for the fallen-from-grace actors who really don't want to get better but need time to decompress so they can read their next screenplay and mem their lines without going to parties and doing lines.

Long ago I took my sperm donor there and they claimed to not have any room or help available and told me that I need to deal with him leaving there and doing a bag to help his sickness. Lovely place! Im against the clinic, but I feel there needs to be more NA/AA meetings in a nicer area. Some people really do need the help and guidance and are disgusted to go into the Badlands for help.

Lauraska's picture

rockoncherry wrote:
I feel there needs to be more NA/AA meetings in a nicer area. Some people really do need the help and guidance and are disgusted to go into the Badlands for help.

Every morning, I see a stream of people coming over to Trenton and Cumberland from the Badlands to attend NA/AA meetings at St. Michael's Church, so I think that would be a good and safe place for someone to go. The group is all very friendly and respectable. In fact, it breaks my heart to know that after those meetings, they have to head right back into the belly of the beast for the rest of the day.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

Coder's picture

Holy Name used to have meetings too.
Don't know if they still do.

2014 york's picture

I don't see much evidence that the current location has caused the sort of problems being discussed and it's only two blocks away. It is possible that the proposed location won't be any different. I'm not in favor of the relocation but I'm willing to listen.

HAZMAT's picture

Lauraska wrote:
rockoncherry wrote:
I feel there needs to be more NA/AA meetings in a nicer area. Some people really do need the help and guidance and are disgusted to go into the Badlands for help.

Every morning, I see a stream of people coming over to Trenton and Cumberland from the Badlands to attend NA/AA meetings at St. Michael's Church, so I think that would be a good and safe place for someone to go. The group is all very friendly and respectable. In fact, it breaks my heart to know that after those meetings, they have to head right back into the belly of the beast for the rest of the day.

people going to these meetings are usually determined to get clean. Its almost a brotherhood of sobriety. The success rate it's only about 70% and they know this, and that alone builds the moral and support for one another. (Edit) methadone is a drug. And anyone on it CAN NOT get into AA or NA. .. so they are doomed to the life of a government junkie.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

rockoncherry wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
The clinic on Girard is kinda like Promises in Malibu... the drug "rehab" for the fallen-from-grace actors who really don't want to get better but need time to decompress so they can read their next screenplay and mem their lines without going to parties and doing lines.

Long ago I took my sperm donor there and they claimed to not have any room or help available and told me that I need to deal with him leaving there and doing a bag to help his sickness. Lovely place! Im against the clinic, but I feel there needs to be more NA/AA meetings in a nicer area. Some people really do need the help and guidance and are disgusted to go into the Badlands for help.

I see no reason not to put NA/AA closer to where it's needed because it doesn't cause the same kind of disturbance and nuisance that methadone clinics cause. That would be akin to the usual flunkie that comes on here whining about the Brotherhood mission.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

2014 york wrote:
I don't see much evidence that the current location has caused the sort of problems being discussed and it's only two blocks away. It is possible that the proposed location won't be any different. I'm not in favor of the relocation but I'm willing to listen.

The current location is also small up there. It's not like the Mega-NET center over on Bridge Street that turns every SEPTA route that goes near it into the "junkie bus". Although one could say the 15 is kinda like that but I've ridden the 15 end to end quite often, it passes by 2 clinics and it's nowhere anywhere near the Holy Hell that is the 66 bus, which isn't even on a route to a clinic but connects to 4 routes that do.

Imagine a SEPTA trolley bus where the pole keeps popping off the wire in the middle of a left turn in an intersection, you're packed in so tight you're standing and the armpit hairs of the straphanger next to you are brushing against your nose, and all you can see is a mural of neck tattoos and bedsore-faces in every direction.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

2014 york's picture

Kenzo wrote:

Imagine a SEPTA trolley bus where the pole keeps popping off the wire in the middle of a left turn in an intersection, you're packed in so tight you're standing and the armpit hairs of the straphanger next to you are brushing against your nose, and all you can see is a mural of neck tattoos and bedsore-faces in every direction.

I'd rather not. Just saying I don't see any reason for pitchforks and torches...or vivid hypotheticals...until we know more. There is the upside of getting the building restored and the possibility of getting it shut down if it creates a problem.

HAZMAT's picture

preemptive thinking is the best way to handle this type of place. Once it's here and running. Good luck on controlling what they do.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

2014 york wrote:
the possibility of getting it shut down if it creates a problem.

That's pretty much not going to happen. Methadone clinics are quick to scream "ADA" whenever you question their practices. Pennsy doesn't shut down clinics over any sort of drama because the cards are stacked in the clinic's favor.

Pittsburgh tried to strictly control clinics and was sideswiped in Federal court over it. That's made every state legislator leery about revisiting it again ever since (although it is up for discussion again, thanks to the aptly named "Methadone Death and Incident Review Board").

I've pounded Allyson Schwartz about it a zillion times as has ever ward leader in the NE who's got a lot of political motivation to be opposed.

The Healing Way clinic is the stupidest proposal for a clinic yet given who owns it and their experience in medicine (zilch), plus the clinic is just blocks from Joan Krajewski's house and several hundred City employees who have lifetime equity in Mayfair and Holmesburg. And from the looks of it---it seems like THW is gonna win. The Russian family is paying Carl Primavera enormous sums in litigation costs and they're not giving up. It's in Commonwealth right now.

This particular clinic though is small. If they're not planning to expand into one of those 300/400+ patient megacenters that have lines stretching out the doors like it's a nightclub and everybody in that waiting room is being monitored by a fugly bouncer, that's more acceptable.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kuishimbo's picture

Kenzo wrote:
The current location is also small up there. It's not like the Mega-NET center over on Bridge Street that turns every SEPTA route that goes near it into the "junkie bus". Although one could say the 15 is kinda like that but I've ridden the 15 end to end quite often, it passes by 2 clinics and it's nowhere anywhere near the Holy Hell that is the 66 bus, which isn't even on a route to a clinic but connects to 4 routes that do.

I've spent a lot of time on both the 15 and the 66. The 15 seems to have set times when the junkies appear. I have noticed it was usually around 9:30 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. The 15 seems to have a higher number of that one nodder who insists on talking to you. There are a fair number of normal people on the 15, so the zombies seem to stand out more.
The 66 seems to be all times a day and elbow to elbow Wobbles. They are more oblivious on the 66 as well.

How often do you have to replace the "I" key on your computer?

rockoncherry's picture

Kenzo wrote:
rockoncherry wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
The clinic on Girard is kinda like Promises in Malibu... the drug "rehab" for the fallen-from-grace actors who really don't want to get better but need time to decompress so they can read their next screenplay and mem their lines without going to parties and doing lines.

Would you go to the Brotherhood Mission or The Last Stop? Some professionals may like a discreet place for help. I know of St. Michaels and the pastor there is so sweet.

Long ago I took my sperm donor there and they claimed to not have any room or help available and told me that I need to deal with him leaving there and doing a bag to help his sickness. Lovely place! Im against the clinic, but I feel there needs to be more NA/AA meetings in a nicer area. Some people really do need the help and guidance and are disgusted to go into the Badlands for help.

I see no reason not to put NA/AA closer to where it's needed because it doesn't cause the same kind of disturbance and nuisance that methadone clinics cause. That would be akin to the usual flunkie that comes on here whining about the Brotherhood mission.

Lutherie's picture

Kenzo wrote:
I lived steps from 1 that had a 400 patient a day load. It's since been moved from Chestnut St. because the landlord saw gentrification and dollar signs and terminated their rent and kicked them out.

So which clinic did you live near?

Beth Israel medical center. New York.

If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.

HAZMAT's picture

Your affection is very unbecoming.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

oldcomer55's picture

rockoncherry wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
The clinic on Girard is kinda like Promises in Malibu... the drug "rehab" for the fallen-from-grace actors who really don't want to get better but need time to decompress so they can read their next screenplay and mem their lines without going to parties and doing lines.

Long ago I took my sperm donor there and they claimed to not have any room or help available and told me that I need to deal with him leaving there and doing a bag to help his sickness. Lovely place! Im against the clinic, but I feel there needs to be more NA/AA meetings in a nicer area. Some people really do need the help and guidance and are disgusted to go into the Badlands for help.

Ok, I'll ask....Your sperm donor?

Lauraska's picture

I have a drug addict in my family and still think that methadone is a crap way of addressing addiction.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

HAZMAT's picture

I have lived with it, in it and around it my entire life. Methadone is nothing but a free high.a disgusting government ploy.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

ThatGirl's picture

housebound wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

If you don't want junkies in the neighborhood to get help, don't complain about them.

You equivocate methadone as help? Hilarious.

So you are also a medical expert, no end to your genius. I do not personally equivocate methadone as help, I leave it to the people in charge of that arena. Apparently they do since there are so many clinics. I'm just not a judgmental person who feels they are above other people who have problems...self inflicted or not.

You do know that it is a disease. How would you treat people with alzheimer's which is also a disease. I wonder how many folks on this site have a drug addict in the family?

housebound wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
oldcomer55 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone clinics that can't contain their patient wait load indoors shouldn't have a license to exist.

Parkside only cleaned up their act when cameras were rolling.

Don't tell me you work there 6 hours a day and have no clue what's going on inches from the front door in plain slight.

Why not? Many businesses, including doctor offices, have people waiting outside when they are overcrowded.

See that storefront across from Primo's at Gaul & Suskie? Perfect place for a new methadone clinic.

I should contact The Healing Way's owners at their next court hearing over the Decatur store to let them know the community is ready, willing, and able to support a clinic in the heart of the F-Tizzy.

If you don't want junkies in the neighborhood to get help, don't complain about them.

You equivocate methadone as help? Hilarious.

So you are also a medical expert, no end to your genius. I do not personally equivocate methadone as help, I leave it to the people in charge of that arena. Apparently they do since there are so many clinics. I'm just not a judgmental person who feels they are above other people who have problems...self inflicted or not.

You do know that it is a disease. How would you treat people with alzheimer's which is also a disease. I wonder how many folks on this site have a drug addict in the family?

I had my nephew show up in the middle of the night from the suburbs at my house asleep on my bench. He was supposed to be in a halfway house. I called my brother and told him his son was on my bench. My brother asked if we would just let him stay the night. I said, "No." I didn't let him in, and my husband drove him back to the suburbs to a friend's house. My point being - I'm not an enabler, even to my own flesh and blood.

Ugh.

Zac Talbott

The vast majority of methadone/buprenorphine maintenance treatment clinics are operated in free-standing buildings. The reason this clinic is moving from the hospital has nothing to do with wanting to get "junkies" away from the hospital. With the opioid addiction epidemic exploding, the current facilities just are not adequate to handle the increased patient load. As one previous commenter mentioned, there are virtually no complaints on this treatment clinic (and a medical practice of ANY specialty is bound to have some "problem patients" notwithstanding what disease they treat). Much of the "trash talk" has more to do with generalized misinformation about methadone treatment and the stigma surrounding the chronic disease of opioid addiction that it does being based in any legitimate concerns based in facts. When a methadone treatment clinic opens in a community (such as the one where this particular treatment center is moving) it actually REDUCES crime rates. Methadone treatment clinics have an overall POSITIVE impact on the communities and areas in which they operate notwithstanding much of the misinformation that is spread which would have you think otherwise.

For those who are interested in the *truth* and research on this subject, I encourage you to check out the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) - of the National Institutes of Health - and/or the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) - of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.... specifically this link will direct you to actual FACTS and studies about methadone clinics and criminal activity: http://international.drugabuse.gov/educational-opportunities/certificate-programs/methadone-research-web-guide/part-b/question-4-does-m

Based on scientific research and medical facts of the past 40+ years, the community into which this treatment clinic is moving actually stands to GAIN and BENEFIT significantly. This has nothing to do with personal opinions. I encourage everyone to put personal biases aside and look at the FACTS surrounding medication-assisted treatment for opioid addiction.

Sincerely yours,
Zac Talbott, BA, MPA | Director
NAMA Recovery TN

HAZMAT's picture

Ha. Methadone clinics improve neighbourhoods? You sell used cars during the day right?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Zac Talbott

I would also like to add a few more links for anyone who is interested in the actual facts about methadone treatment that is a good general overview of the research done on the effectiveness of methadone therapies for the treatment of opioid addiction: http://international.drugabuse.gov/educational-opportunities/certificate-programs/methadone-research-web-guide/part-b/question-1-methad

The CDC (Centers for Disease Control) also has released a study after their own research in which they conclude that methadone maintenance treatment is the *most* effective treatment for opioid addiction currently available: http://www.cdc.gov/idu/facts/methadonefin.pdf

Lastly, for everyone's consideration who are impartial and truly interested in the facts & truth, our own National Institutes of Health's (NIH) consensus panel on the Effective Medical Treatment of Opioid Addiction released in 1998, methadone therapy is the "gold standard" for the treatment of opioid addiction, much like insulin for diabetes. The fact the study is from 15 years ago is irrelevant because their conclusions are still just as relevant - as those studies which attest to the effectiveness of insulin in treating diabetes are decades later as well. I encourage you to follow this link for that NIH consensus panel report and read it thoroughly. I'm sure you're aware (and if you are not you can easily verify) of the *un-biased* credibility of the National Institutes of Health on their consensus panel reports and statements: http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1998treatopiateaddiction108html.htm

Sincerely yours,
Zac Talbott, BA, MPA | Director
NAMA Recovery TN

HAZMAT's picture

Methadone maintenance? Not addiction cure. Right? So people are no longer addicted to dope. Just methadone. Right?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

creased's picture

Did I accidentally login into fishtown.tn??

FPDA's picture

Zac, when I was younger my father taught me a lesson when setting bait for ants. You want it close enough to home that it'll be within the detection range of the ones that are causing you problems, but far enough away that it won't draw ants from further afield close enough to home to decide to intrude.

Coder's picture

ECT used to be the "gold standard".
I'm sure that its wonderful for the few addicts who actually want to help themselves.
But it has been my personal experience, repeatedly, that most users of methadone are still getting high, because if they aren't, the people at 8th & Girard and Broad and Poplar, don't know how to correctly dispense the medication.
They should come out of treatment as funcioning humans, not as a wasted pile of cells, falling off their trolley seat, because they are dipping so hard they have no idea they are sideways.
Also, why don't they ever get weaned? Why are they on these programs for 5, 10, and in some cases 20 years. Could it possibly be because its a very secure revenue stream?
I hope that you are actually that altruistic, and not just naive.
But time will tell, and if you're still around, you'll hear about it.

2014 york's picture

Nicotine gum has done nothing to stop my craving for smoking. In fact, it's made it harder to quit.

Horde's picture

Comparing insulin to methadone is kind of a reach buddy. I die without insulin do addicts die without methadone?

Horde's picture

Crawl back into your hole.

HAZMAT's picture

2014 york wrote:
Nicotine gum has done nothing to stop my craving for smoking. In fact, it's made it harder to quit.

Any and all forms of weaning from addiction is a big mind screw. But hey it's big money. Right?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

2014 york's picture

I still find it odd that either NSCA or Sanchez support this. Makes me wonder what they stand to gain. I'm not convinced that we"NEED" the clinic.

HAZMAT's picture

Any. And I mean any thing they can do to divert progress.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

2014 york's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
Any. And I mean any thing they can do to divert progress.

I don't think that's it....there must be money to follow.

HAZMAT's picture

That's a give in . Federal dollars follow poverty. Get rid of poor people and you cut the flow of unchecked federal funds. They have no intention on educating the people we pay them (tax dollars) to serve and lift from poverty.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

dmandy's picture

2014 york wrote:
I still find it odd that either NSCA or Sanchez support this. Makes me wonder what they stand to gain. I'm not convinced that we"NEED" the clinic.

Does anyone know if anything is planned for the space where the clinic is now?

HAZMAT's picture

dmandy wrote:
2014 york wrote:
I still find it odd that either NSCA or Sanchez support this. Makes me wonder what they stand to gain. I'm not convinced that we"NEED" the clinic.

Does anyone know if anything is planned for the space where the clinic is now?

You can't make plans with property you don't own. And as far as front st is concerned NSCA has a death grip on most major parcels there. And this property is owned by Kensington hospital. Would be nice to look into the deed trail and see how it was acquired.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

dmandy's picture

HAZMAT wrote:
dmandy wrote:
2014 york wrote:
I still find it odd that either NSCA or Sanchez support this. Makes me wonder what they stand to gain. I'm not convinced that we"NEED" the clinic.

Does anyone know if anything is planned for the space where the clinic is now?

You can't make plans with property you don't own. And as far as front st is concerned NSCA has a death grip on most major parcels there. And this property is owned by Kensington hospital. Would be nice to look into the deed trail and see how it was acquired.

If there are plans for the space where the clinic is now, maybe it's something NSCA and Sanchez think will be better for the neighborhood. They may think that moving the clinic to Front Street is moving it out of their neighborhood, not physically but emotionally.

HAZMAT's picture

dmandy wrote:
HAZMAT wrote:
dmandy wrote:
2014 york wrote:
I still find it odd that either NSCA or Sanchez support this. Makes me wonder what they stand to gain. I'm not convinced that we"NEED" the clinic.

Does anyone know if anything is planned for the space where the clinic is now?

You can't make plans with property you don't own. And as far as front st is concerned NSCA has a death grip on most major parcels there. And this property is owned by Kensington hospital. Would be nice to look into the deed trail and see how it was acquired.

If there are plans for the space where the clinic is now, maybe it's something NSCA and Sanchez think will be better for the neighborhood. They may think that moving the clinic to Front Street is moving it out of their neighborhood, not physically but emotionally.

the fact that they even opened a daycare less than 200 ft. from the methadone clinic leads me to believe the motivation has nothing to do with location.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kenzo's picture

Just walked past an OD'd junkie lying prone on his back at 12/Chestnut. Weee!

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

HAZMAT's picture

MrMac wrote:
HAZMAT wrote:
Kensington hospital moving methadone clinic to front and diamond sts. Seems this is going through NSCA and has all approvals. Is this not EKNA/FNA territory also? Why no joint meetings on this?
I'm not at all liking this people.

I think this location is in 19122

your an idiot.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Kuishimbo's picture

Zac Talbott wrote:
Much of the "trash talk" has more to do with generalized misinformation about methadone treatment and the stigma surrounding the chronic disease of opioid addiction that it does being based in any legitimate concerns based in facts. When a methadone treatment clinic opens in a community (such as the one where this particular treatment center is moving) it actually REDUCES crime rates. Methadone treatment clinics have an overall POSITIVE impact on the communities and areas in which they operate notwithstanding much of the misinformation that is spread which would have you think otherwise.

I'm sorry. Most of my opinion comes from my daily experiences riding the bus with people going to and from the methadone clinic at 8th and Girard. For 3 years, I saw people who were unable to figure out how to pay for the bus, people who constantly got on the wrong bus (getting on the 15 instead of the 47 or eastbound instead of west bound), people who would get into fist fights over petty nonsense, people who were rude to other passengers and people trying to sell their transpasses (or trying to buy them back at the end of the month because they need to prove they didn't sell theirs). A "drain on society" is how I would accurately describe them. I also have a lot of second-hand stories from my mom who worked as a nurse at the methadone clinic for 2 years on Saturday mornings.

Go spend a day at the doughnut shop, laundromat and library at 6th and Girard and tell me what a great addition to the neighborhood a methadone clinic is. My favorite days are when the low-level drug dealers would show up to rough up some of the addicts because they owed them money.

How often do you have to replace the "I" key on your computer?

MM2325's picture

Kuishimbo wrote:
Zac Talbott wrote:
Much of the "trash talk" has more to do with generalized misinformation about methadone treatment and the stigma surrounding the chronic disease of opioid addiction that it does being based in any legitimate concerns based in facts. When a methadone treatment clinic opens in a community (such as the one where this particular treatment center is moving) it actually REDUCES crime rates. Methadone treatment clinics have an overall POSITIVE impact on the communities and areas in which they operate notwithstanding much of the misinformation that is spread which would have you think otherwise.

I'm sorry. Most of my opinion comes from my daily experiences riding the bus with people going to and from the methadone clinic at 8th and Girard. For 3 years, I saw people who were unable to figure out how to pay for the bus, people who constantly got on the wrong bus (getting on the 15 instead of the 47 or eastbound instead of west bound), people who would get into fist fights over petty nonsense, people who were rude to other passengers and people trying to sell their transpasses (or trying to buy them back at the end of the month because they need to prove they didn't sell theirs). A "drain on society" is how I would accurately describe them. I also have a lot of second-hand stories from my mom who worked as a nurse at the methadone clinic for 2 years on Saturday mornings.

Go spend a day at the doughnut shop, laundromat and library at 6th and Girard and tell me what a great addition to the neighborhood a methadone clinic is. My favorite days are when the low-level drug dealers would show up to rough up some of the addicts because they owed them money.

Great idea, Zac Talbott, Go spend the day at 6th and Girard. I looking forward to your comments!

sdm's picture

He lives in Tennessee, I doubt he has any clue as to what we deal with up here, especially since the town he works out of has a population of 259.

From welfare to Mayfair.

Kenzo's picture

Kuishimbo wrote:
Zac Talbott wrote:
Much of the "trash talk" has more to do with generalized misinformation about methadone treatment and the stigma surrounding the chronic disease of opioid addiction that it does being based in any legitimate concerns based in facts. When a methadone treatment clinic opens in a community (such as the one where this particular treatment center is moving) it actually REDUCES crime rates. Methadone treatment clinics have an overall POSITIVE impact on the communities and areas in which they operate notwithstanding much of the misinformation that is spread which would have you think otherwise.

I'm sorry. Most of my opinion comes from my daily experiences riding the bus with people going to and from the methadone clinic at 8th and Girard. For 3 years, I saw people who were unable to figure out how to pay for the bus, people who constantly got on the wrong bus (getting on the 15 instead of the 47 or eastbound instead of west bound), people who would get into fist fights over petty nonsense, people who were rude to other passengers and people trying to sell their transpasses (or trying to buy them back at the end of the month because they need to prove they didn't sell theirs). A "drain on society" is how I would accurately describe them. I also have a lot of second-hand stories from my mom who worked as a nurse at the methadone clinic for 2 years on Saturday mornings.

Go spend a day at the doughnut shop, laundromat and library at 6th and Girard and tell me what a great addition to the neighborhood a methadone clinic is. My favorite days are when the low-level drug dealers would show up to rough up some of the addicts because they owed them money.

The effect of Girard Medical Center (the methadone place) is more pronounced because they run a cattle stampede operation there.

http://www.nphs.com/girard_home.html

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

Zac Talbott wrote:
I would also like to add a few more links for anyone who is interested in the actual facts about methadone treatment that is a good general overview of the research done on the effectiveness of methadone therapies for the treatment of opioid addiction: http://international.drugabuse.gov/educational-opportunities/certificate-programs/methadone-research-web-guide/part-b/question-1-methad

The CDC (Centers for Disease Control) also has released a study after their own research in which they conclude that methadone maintenance treatment is the *most* effective treatment for opioid addiction currently available: http://www.cdc.gov/idu/facts/methadonefin.pdf

Lastly, for everyone's consideration who are impartial and truly interested in the facts & truth, our own National Institutes of Health's (NIH) consensus panel on the Effective Medical Treatment of Opioid Addiction released in 1998, methadone therapy is the "gold standard" for the treatment of opioid addiction, much like insulin for diabetes. The fact the study is from 15 years ago is irrelevant because their conclusions are still just as relevant - as those studies which attest to the effectiveness of insulin in treating diabetes are decades later as well. I encourage you to follow this link for that NIH consensus panel report and read it thoroughly. I'm sure you're aware (and if you are not you can easily verify) of the *un-biased* credibility of the National Institutes of Health on their consensus panel reports and statements: http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1998treatopiateaddiction108html.htm

Sincerely yours,
Zac Talbott, BA, MPA | Director
NAMA Recovery TN

LOL a loser has a Google Alert looking for anyone with a negative opinion on the Internets about methadone and he's being paid (I assume?) to be the lone Internet warrior for the methadone machine?

Ghey.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

MM2325's picture

The real Zac Talbott

Hi all. My name is Zac. I'm 29 years old (30 in April), and I am a opioid addict living in recovery as a MMT patient. I am a lifelong resident of TN. I am very passionate about spreading the TRUTH about MMT and working to end the stigma that too often surrounds the treatment that has, quite literally, saved & restored my life. We have just launched a Tennessee State Chapter of NAMA Recovery (The National Alliance of Medication Assisted Recovery, formerly the National Alliance of Methadone Advocates), and I am VERY excited to get NAMA Recovery in Tennessee... MMT advocacy is most certainly needed here! I am the Chapter Director for NAMA Recovery of TN, and I encourage ALL MMT patients that live in Tennessee (and EVERY state) to get involved with an advocacy organization like NAMA. I'm excited to join this forum, and I very much look forward to getting to know you all & share in information, awareness & support! :-)

Sincerely,
Zac Talbott

www.methadone.org

Kenzo's picture

Methadone.

It's like AVON.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

FPDA's picture

I think there might be a warehouse at Wildey and Marlborough that could use a methadone clinic/strip club/ asbestos factory.

bozoloper's picture

Kenzo wrote:
Methadone.

It's like AVON.

amway

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

HAZMAT's picture

bozoloper wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
Methadone.

It's like AVON.

amway

Finger hut.

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

Coder's picture

WHY...does everytime I view this post, it takes me to the Google Map of the location, and then I have to scroll down to get to the new post?
As alway, just trying to learn....

JedicusMaximus's picture

Coder wrote:
WHY...does everytime I view this post, it takes me to the Google Map of the location, and then I have to scroll down to get to the new post?
As alway, just trying to learn....

That happens to me too when I use Internet Explorer but not when I use Firefox.

10011101

Coder's picture

I'll have to flip over to Chrome.

ddtc

There is a ZONING MEETING for this METHADONE CLINIC on October 12th at 2140 Hancock Street at 6:00 pm. BRING PROOF OF RESIDENCE -

PLEASE BE PART OF FIGHTING THIS. This clinic is one block from El Stop, one block from Schools, one block from the park, it needs to be elsewhere...in a hospital, not on the corner in a proposed FIVE story complex complete with AWNINGS for all the patients to hang out under all day, only 13 parking spots (really just for employees), etc. The list can go on and on.

PS to Anyone who says its good for the neighborhood, spare me...how come its not on any home sales listing "one block from meth clinic" huh??? Stop spreading crap that its good.

dan

ddtc wrote:
PS to Anyone who says its good for the neighborhood, spare me...how come its not on any home sales listing "one block from meth clinic" huh??? Stop spreading crap that its good.

You tell 'em.
Our neighborhood is definitely much better with people stealing and prostituting to support their addiction to illegal drugs that can kill them than it is to have people in a medically-managed program.

(This is not to deny that there are issues with poorly-run non-comprehensive programs. Rather, it's to say that we continue to say "Not in My Back Yard" to solutions when we keep creating the problems in our front yards and in our houses.)

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Kenzo's picture

♫ dan ♫ wrote:
ddtc wrote:
PS to Anyone who says its good for the neighborhood, spare me...how come its not on any home sales listing "one block from meth clinic" huh??? Stop spreading crap that its good.

You tell 'em.
Our neighborhood is definitely much better with people stealing and prostituting to support their addiction to illegal drugs that can kill them than it is to have people in a medically-managed program.

(This is not to deny that there are issues with poorly-run non-comprehensive programs. Rather, it's to say that we continue to say "Not in My Back Yard" to solutions when we keep creating the problems in our front yards and in our houses.)

Let's move it to next door to Dan's house.

Because you'll love the line that forms outside the building in the mornings and all the "recovering" junkies squatting on steps and sitting around inside storefronts everywhere while they're waiting for their appointments because somehow they're incapable of >waiting patiently< in a >patient waiting< room.

Front might not be residential, but everything nearby is. Even though they're adding to this building I don't think they're going to pen in the patients (8th and Girard is a big high volume clinic but waiting patients hang out all over the place, particularly the donut shop across the street). QOL-wise this won't be uplifting to turning that area of the EL around.

Only a few of these private methadone dispensaries operate in Philadelphia with a nonsense-free track record. Kensington Hospital has been one of them, helped by an above-grade location. Now that it's moving to at-grade and is gonna sit in a semi-desolate stretch of Front, I think it will create problems.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Matt Benatar's picture

Two Q's:
Can anyone propose an actual location? Is there a better spot closer to where heroin is purchased?
Can I vote at this meeting? I live in Fishtown near JBs.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Lauraska's picture

I would really love to hear how I personally have contributed to the drug problem in my front yard or my house.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

Leo's picture

I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

Mulvihill & Rushie LLC
The Fishtown Lawyers
Criminal Defense • Civil Trials
www.FishtownLaw.com
215.385.5291

Kenzo's picture

I posted EKNA's announcement here:
http://www.philadelinquency.com/?p=3659

The joint zoning meeting is NSCA, Hope Street Neighbors for Better Living, and EKNA only. FNA wasn't on the list.

If FNA reaches out they could definitely ask to be included.

The meeting is going to be held at the church across Norris Square park.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

You mean the dealers we already have, like the ones hanging around Huntington and Emerald?

Nice false dichotomy.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

2014 york's picture

Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

Dealers tend to follow the clinics and any AA/NA meeting places. Not that we don't already have numerous dealers within a block of the proposed location.

Only those living within 500' can vote. NSCA placed notices of the meeting at each home in their neighborhood but none in East Kensington. I imagine they don't want those within 500' in East Kensington voting. The fact that this will be a methadone clinic is missing from both the zoning notice and meeting flyer. I think it relevant information, don't you?

This clinic is not serving the immediate community. It's customer base travels from areas North of Lehigh. Not saying there won't be a few from surrounding neighborhoods but I feel that it should be located where the problems of drug addiction are greatest. Kensington Hospital depends on the clinic as a source of income rather that it being a needed service in Norris Square. I spend a great deal of time in the NS community and know how to spot a heroin addict or methadone user. I will say they do a decent job with current clinic customers but they do not have a huge demand. This new clinic is designed for many more.

I agree that calling people NIMBY's is a crock when this is not being opened next door to you. Dan. perhaps you have room at the church for a clinic?

upandup19125's picture

The neighbors who live on Coral closest to this location are very upset about this- they already have problems with vagrants getting in through the abandoned houses on Front Street and vandalizing property. I can't see where opening the clinic there would help that situation.

Also, the methadone clinic currently operates WITHIN the boundaries of Kensington Hospital, where they have additional security, staff, and monitoring, plus ease of moving those patients who need it to their other service areas located within the hospital. This is purely a political move to push the clinic out of Norris Square.

The real drug issues in our neighborhood are the dealers who operate nearby. Without them, there would be no customer base staggering through the streets of East Kensington. The proposed clinic move would be bringing them a new, even easier to access customer base, thereby increasing the problem.

Anyone who would like to lob NIMBY accusations is welcome to propose a new location for the clinic in their backyard.

bozoloper's picture

Kenzo wrote:
Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

You mean the dealers we already have, like the ones hanging around Huntington and Emerald?

Nice false dichotomy.

i walk that at least twice daily, if not more. i've never noticed dealing at that intersection.

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

bozoloper's picture

Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

at least the dealers hustle the junkies off their block once they buy.

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

Coder's picture

bozoloper wrote:

at least the dealers hustle the junkies off their block once they buy.

You ever try to hustle a heroin addict...its impossible.
They can't do anything fast.

bozoloper's picture

Coder wrote:
bozoloper wrote:

at least the dealers hustle the junkies off their block once they buy.

You ever try to hustle a heroin addict...its impossible.
They can't do anything fast.

dealers amped up on pcp can be pretty scary.

i still think we should convert the abandoned factory lots to poppy fields. when the dope is free junkies are kind of fun to hangout with.

Czech Heroin Holiday:
http://youtu.be/IdYZj9vmfi0

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

Coder's picture

bozoloper wrote:
Coder wrote:
bozoloper wrote:

at least the dealers hustle the junkies off their block once they buy.

You ever try to hustle a heroin addict...its impossible.
They can't do anything fast.

dealers amped up on pcp can be pretty scary.

Yeah well, who would buy off a dealer that uses? Especially that crap.
Speed freaks are pretty quick...obviously, hence the name.
But heroin users always remind me of people functioning in slow motion.

Kenzo's picture

The good heroin is now available in Delco.

http://www.philly.com/philly/health/20131108_Efforts_to_limit_prescription_pills_could_push_heroin_use.html

Quote:
Pennsylvania has the third-highest number of heroin users in the nation, after California and Illinois

Oh yay, I should open up a clinic in Port Richmond Village. Easier than renting apartments to junkies and collecting rent. No $$$ or valid insurance, no little green drink.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

ForeverChanges's picture

I live fairly close to the proposed clinic. Can I get some clarification on this upcoming meeting?

Is this a voting meeting? I see that a ZBA meeting looks to have already been held on the 12th (results?)

Is this next meeting just to voice opposition/support? Or will the outcome change in any way what the ZBA meeting on the 12th resulted in?

roman's picture

I wonder if the investors/realitors are dumping money into stopping this action.

lighterthief's picture

ForeverChanges wrote:
I live fairly close to the proposed clinic. Can I get some clarification on this upcoming meeting?

Is this a voting meeting? I see that a ZBA meeting looks to have already been held on the 12th (results?)

Is this next meeting just to voice opposition/support? Or will the outcome change in any way what the ZBA meeting on the 12th resulted in?

Yes, it is a voting meeting - the meeting is being convened by NSCA but is a joint meeting with EKNA and Hope Street Neighbors.

The earlier ZBA hearing was continued to allow for the community meeting to occur.

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

Kenzo's picture

I'll just let everyone know up front: MQS's office totally supports the clinic relocating.

I don't think getting her to change her mind would be easily done unless you promised her and Tomas some campaign financing. Tomas is running for state rep next year.

Methadone clinics confuse the ZBA. They'll vote no if the district council person sends a rep to the hearing expressing displeasure.

Whether the following QOL issues with methadone clinics are eased at the community zoning meeting totally depend on the answers that Kensington Hospital gives to questions like this. I invite ANYONE going to this meeting to pick out questions and see what the hospital's response is:

- What is your expected patient load with this expansion you're doing? 400 patients a day? 500? 800?
- How will you keep drug dealers away from your property and intercepting patients transiting to you?
- How will you discourage loitering outside the facility while patients wait for their appointments?
- Will you have indoor and outdoor surveillance cameras on all 4 sides of your property? Are you going to turn over video footage to the PPD each and every time they ask for it, or only do it when YOU get property damage?
- Are you going to increase the lighting around all four sides of the property to discourage evening loitering and improve surveillance camera visibility?
- Street trash dramatically increases around storefront methadone clinics. [Patients spew trash everywhere they go in transit to/from the clinic, see: Front and Girard, then 6th-9th and Girard, the lawns outside Parkside Recovery, etc.]. How frequently are you going to go outside your clinic to clear trash outside your property?
- Are you willing to cut service to patients who are found to be committing property crimes near the clinic while they're active patients or will you keep dispensing even while they're still using other drugs and committing breaking-and-enterings in the proximate area? If the police tell you "this person goes to your clinic and we have locked him up for breaking into houses around here... will you cut him off and tell him to find another clinic to go to?
- Have you communicated with the 26th Police District at all about your plans and expected expansion patient capacity?

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

Kenzo's picture

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

dan

Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

Precisely.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

dan

Lauraska wrote:
I would really love to hear how I personally have contributed to the drug problem in my front yard or my house.

Collective responsibility is something we like to put on when we support something and take off when we don't.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Kenzo's picture

♫ dan ♫ wrote:
Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

Precisely.

Leo's comment presumes that methadone clinics put their patients on a reliable track to a cure or at least prolong relapse to a long enough length of time to impact demand. Doesn't do that either. Everyone in this particular treatment business is in it for the revenue stream.

Methadone expansion hasn't dented heroin sales in the area. We have plenty of dealers and now more are going to pop up around that part of Front because their market is going to be transiting to/from it.

The larger practitioners don't even like methadone patients being around their other operations. Jefferson Hospital didn't want junkies coming and going out of their main buildings, that's why they rented a floor at 12th and Chestnut and stuck their women's methadone center in there rather than putting it on premesis.

Kensington Hospital is now shoving this under the EL to get it away from their office but still generate the income.

Want to push out the heroin business in Kensington? Gentrify the rest of Kensington and raise property prices so junkies and dealers can't afford to live here.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

dan

Kenzo wrote:
Let's move it to next door to Dan's house..

I'd be there with cookies on opening day. :)
I'd also have high expectations for how they run it.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

dan

2014 york wrote:
Dan. perhaps you have room at the church for a clinic?

The house immediately next door to the church building on Dauhpin Street is for sale.
I can get you the realtor's number to pass along if you like.

Incidentally, don't forget our church has a second building which we rent.
It's on Kensington Ave. To its left, its right, and above it there are recovery houses. There is an AA/NA clubhouse a few doors down. St Francis Inn, which serves meals and provides clinical services to the homeless, prostitutes, and other addicts (who, incidentally, are the same people we try to get to come into our building) is across the street. We consider it prime location. :)

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

dan

Kenzo wrote:
♫ dan ♫ wrote:
Leo wrote:
I have no problem with methadone clinics — would you prefer heroin dealers instead?

Precisely.

Leo's comment presumes that methadone clinics put their patients on a reliable track to a cure or at least prolong relapse to a long enough length of time to impact demand. Doesn't do that either. Everyone in this particular treatment business is in it for the revenue stream.

They don't.

This is the bigger issue. Everybody's answer is "push them out of our sight".
Apparently hating on junkies is the latest fad in the neighborhood, because newbies aren't allowed to hate on people based on color or sexual preference.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Kenzo's picture

♫ dan ♫ wrote:
This is the bigger issue. Everybody's answer is "push them out of our sight".
Apparently hating on junkies is the latest fad in the neighborhood, because newbies aren't allowed to hate on people based on color or sexual preference.

Yeah Dan this isn't like rescuing kittens with cancer.

I'm more than happy to see junkies pack up the moving van and head to the suburbs.

They can take their problems and their DRAMA, with them to the collar counties with the high tax revenue to pay for services that they consume.

You don't have the cure for this problem, so why should the river wards be condemned for all eternity to be the junkie ward for the metro region? No thanks. My version of treatment is spend more on education and encourage these people to get abortions early and often to have fewer kids who will be put through this cycle of despair so it's less of a problem for society as a whole given enough time.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

dan

I'll sum it up this way, then I have to get going.
"It's hypocritical to claim to be progressive if you're just shuffling around which people you consider disposable."
If you're never claimed to care about other people, then it's not an issue.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Kenzo's picture

♫ dan ♫ wrote:
I'll sum it up this way, then I have to get going.
"It's hypocritical to claim to be progressive if you're just shuffling around which people you consider disposable."
If you're never claimed to care about other people, then it's not an issue.

I'm not Jesus and I think He would strike me down if I said I loved everyone.

You're welcome to file an amicus brief when this heads to court. Which I suspect it will.

I'm not a progressive, I'm a center-left libertarian; I support PA Medicaid stripping methadone and suboxone from the state payment schedule. If you want this service, then pay cash.

On the advice of someone who probably queened-out, this signature has been deleted.

upandup19125's picture

First, I think people have a right to say what kind of services they do or don't want to see in their neighborhood. NSCA tried to strip us of this right by trying to slide this under the radar with a lack of flyering, burying the language about the true nature of this project in their legally required communications, etc.

Second, the goal of this move is not to help patients. What is most helpful to patients is having their treatment and any necessary crisis or detox services co-located in one building with heavy security, as it is currently set up at Kensington Hospital. This is purely a political move for Maria Quinones Sanchez to say "Hey, look, I got this further out of the neighborhood. Vote for me!" You're a fool if you think it's about solving any problems we have with junkies/dealers.

Methadone clinic operators are in it for the money, so this expansion helps them. This is not about helping people solve their drug problems. Given the numbers of drug dealers who operate within a few blocks of the proposed new location, it is only pushing recovering addicts closer to temptation. And then the final losers in this situation are the neighbors who have been fighting like hell to eradicate the dealer issues, and the kids who will have to walk past this nonsense on their way to school.

Anyone who wants to ride into this meeting on their high horse throwing out accusations of NIMBYism is welcome to speak up and propose a location close to their home.

dan

Kenzo wrote:
I'm not a progressive, I'm a center-left libertarian;

A libertarian that wants the government to tell people they can't open a legal health-care business.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

dan

Okay, let me give a bit more context of my thoughts on the subject:

Methadone clinics generally suck. Methadone maintenance does reduce the risky behavior of a small percentage of addicts, but the numbers are still pretty sad. Methadone clinics are, not surprisingly, attractive to addicts and some of the problematic behavior with addiction can grow around methadone clinics. I am not a big fan of methadone clinics. That said, they offer some improvement for a lot of people and i would welcome one next door to my home, my office, my place of worship, or any other place I spend significant amounts of time.

We need much, much, much more comprehensive programs to deal with addiction in our society. Yes, they're expensive. However, I think not treating addiction leads to greater expense in the long run. We prefer paying $100K/addict/year for emergency care and law enforcement to paying $30K/addict/year for treatment and support services,

Everybody wants to send the addicts from their neighborhood to someone else's neighborhood, or at least from their block to someone else's block. Everyone wants to complain about how addicts behave, but few want to try to cut away at the root of the problem.

I'm certainly not saying a methadone clinic is a panacea. I'm saying we need to step up.

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Lauraska's picture

upandup19125 wrote:
First, I think people have a right to say what kind of services they do or don't want to see in their neighborhood. NSCA tried to strip us of this right by trying to slide this under the radar with a lack of flyering, burying the language about the true nature of this project in their legally required communications, etc.

Second, the goal of this move is not to help patients. What is most helpful to patients is having their treatment and any necessary crisis or detox services co-located in one building with heavy security, as it is currently set up at Kensington Hospital. This is purely a political move for Maria Quinones Sanchez to say "Hey, look, I got this further out of the neighborhood. Vote for me!" You're a fool if you think it's about solving any problems we have with junkies/dealers.

Methadone clinic operators are in it for the money, so this expansion helps them. This is not about helping people solve their drug problems. Given the numbers of drug dealers who operate within a few blocks of the proposed new location, it is only pushing recovering addicts closer to temptation. And then the final losers in this situation are the neighbors who have been fighting like hell to eradicate the dealer issues, and the kids who will have to walk past this nonsense on their way to school.

Anyone who wants to ride into this meeting on their high horse throwing out accusations of NIMBYism is welcome to speak up and propose a location close to their home.

This is precisely how I feel. I'm progressive and don't owe anyone any justification of that. I'm about to turn my life upside down by potentially taking custody of a baby born to a relative who is a junkie, so don't talk to me about a lack of compassion. Methadone treatment doesn't work, unless being a mindless zombie on a "legal" drug instead of being a mindless zombie on an illegal drug is considered viable treatment. And the idea that this neighborhood just has to deal with the drug epidemic and let it go on around us like it doesn't matter is utterly insane.

No one here is replacing any prejudices based on race or sexuality by hating junkies. That accusation is laughable at best. Junkies are the people robbing our houses, breaking into our cars, and leaving needles in the playgrounds where our children should be playing. They are the people having babies that end up in they system, becoming the responsibility of the rest of us, while their birth parents just go back to using. Get rid of the junkies, get rid of the dealers, get rid of the relatives and friends who allow both the junkies and the dealers to do what they do. And good freakin' riddance. If that makes me "less progressive," I'm perfectly fine with that.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

dan

Incidentally, here's a little "light reading" on methadone:
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/faculty/detels/Epi293/Gossop_DrugAlcDepend_2001.pdf

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Mr. Yuk's picture

Sorry for the nativity, but why does MQ's office support this? And how can it be so close to a school? That seems a bit questionable given the other concerns bring discussed.

Mr. Yuk's picture

Haha! Being naive, not nativity.

dan

Lauraska wrote:
Methadone treatment doesn't work, unless being a mindless zombie on a "legal" drug instead of being a mindless zombie on an illegal drug is considered viable treatment.

Yes, methadone is a failure in that it doesn't reduce addiction. It just keeps people from harming themselves and others more than if they weren't on methadone. In that way they're like EBT & WIC which are a failure because they don't get people jobs. They just keep people from malnutrition.

Quote:
And the idea that this neighborhood just has to deal with the drug epidemic and let it go on around us like it doesn't matter is utterly insane.

Ah, but that's precisely the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying we are choosing to "let it go on around us" because we won't deal with it.

Quote:
Get rid of the junkies, get rid of the dealers, get rid of the relatives and friends who allow both the junkies and the dealers to do what they do. And good freakin' riddance. If that makes me "less progressive," I'm perfectly fine with that.

I'm sure Governor Corbett will be sending you a personally signed welcome letter soon. :)

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Kenzo's picture

♫ dan ♫ wrote:
A libertarian that wants the government to tell people they can't open a legal health-care business.

There's no "care", or health, in this "health-care". It's like arguing Scientology isn't a cult.

It's just corporate drug-dealing and a way to extract cash out of healthcare insurance (public and private). That's why I'd prefer state-funded healthcare systems to kill methadone off their payor schedules; let the patients pay for the whole thing. If methadone is so wonderful the clinics should have no problem running as a cash-only business.

The Healing Way Clinic that I'm fighting (Frankford and Decatur); the owners are a CASH FOR GOLD business, specifically the one they run at 711 Sansom Street. Before that one of the applicant-partners was a slumlord with houses all over the Northeast.

That's great that you're 100% for charlatans to dispense drugs to junkies who aren't getting well.

So why bother with dispensaries? Why not just legalize mail-order methadone and let the patients get it at home. Methadone administered in city clinics has made its way out on to the street for sale; the clinics run as cheap as they can to maximize profit and there's no real "security" to keep liquid methadone from getting out of the clinic and on the street for sale.

There's already been enough deaths from liquid methadone just in Pennsylvania alone that dispensary treatment is stupid.

Just cut the middleman out and let them order it online or pick it up at a warehouse somewhere and self-medicate.

Or better yet just give the junkies Tramadol which is a synthetic opioid that can't be abused because it causes blackout and dry heaves if you take too much of it or crush the pills to "slam" it without the time release coating.

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Kenzo's picture

Here, I'll just say it: I'd rather see a Planned Parenthood clinic there.

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dan

Kenzo wrote:
♫ dan ♫ wrote:
A libertarian that wants the government to tell people they can't open a legal health-care business.

There's no "care", or health, in this "health-care".

Perhaps. But wouldn't a libertarian allow the client to make the choice and the corporation to make the profit?

Quote:
That's great that you're 100% for charlatans to dispense drugs to junkies who aren't getting well.

Please go back and read the post I made above giving a fuller explanation of my thoughts on methadone clinics. Then also read the article I posted on methadone maintenance.

Of course, you have no obligation to. You can "tl;dr" the whole thing, but then that makes informed dialog on the topic impossible.

I don't think methadone clinics are the best idea. However, I also don't see us coming up with any solutions. Our rallying cry seems to be, "let's take our problem and make it somebody else's problem".

"I like my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it." - D.L. Moody

Lauraska's picture

Hahaha. Now I'm being compared to Corbett. This just gets better and better.

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

Kenzo's picture

♫ dan ♫ wrote:
Our rallying cry seems to be, "let's take our problem and make it somebody else's problem".

It's not "our" problem it's a national problem and the better method to fix it is to legalize drugs (libertarian), kill off state-sponsored profiteering on the backs of junkies (ending Medicaid support for this "service") which would probably end the expansion of Methadone centers across PA if PA Medicaid cut funding, and put a stop to court-ordered outpatient methadone maintenance (courts shouldn't force you to cough up cash for a treatment that has a very low rate of success).

Go find me a paper that shows more than 40% of outpatient methadone clients spend longer than 5-7 years before the next relapse thanks mostly to the aid of methadone treatment.

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Kenzo's picture

Methadone, an addictive synthetic opioid, to blame for 1/3 of prescription painkiller deaths, according to the CDC from patients proscribed for pain treatment:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57466363-10391704/methadone-to-blame-for-one-third-of-u.s-prescription-painkiller-deaths-cdc-says/

When someone ODs in my neighborhood and is pulled out of the house in a bodybag (this year it was Sepviva Street, AGAIN)... we always assume it was a heroin OD. Maybe not.

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Kenzo's picture

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Kenzo's picture

For-profit methadone clinic abuse prompt bills:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-28/methadone-deaths-tied-to-for-profit-clinics-prompt-bills.html

Again, the zoning meeting tomorrow is going to hinge on how Kensington Hospital responds to questions about security, ensuring all the waiting patients are contained inside the property and away from dealers wanting to approach them, and how they can keep the clinic from impacting and harming nearby property owners who hold a similar right to enjoy their property as the clinic does.

If it's this holier than thou attitude with a soupçon of "you should just shut up and accept it because we help save lives!!!" then I'm guessing it will go to court and they'll have to fight and wait years to get a variance.

The Healing Way still doesn't have their permits to open and they've been spending $100,000/yr for rent on a building they can't use. That case (of which I am part and have been funding) hasn't yet been set for oral at Commonwealth Court.

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Kenzo's picture

Another:

NC government-run clinic treating a cocaine addict with methadone, helping him reach the grave: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/NC-ordered-to-pay-528K-in-patient-overdose-death-4968563.php

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2014 york's picture

Any of you planning on going to the meeting? I'm planning to go, mostly because those meetings with NSCA folks are so much fun

Kenzo's picture

2014 york wrote:
Any of you planning on going to the meeting? I'm planning to go, mostly because those meetings with NSCA folks are so much fun

It's great when the screaming is in English and Spanish at the same time, like the remapping meeting was.

I'm going.

Maybe Kensington Hospital can move it to the now-former Wynn site. When the 95 construction is done the illegal ATVs will be back. Junkies can dodge them on the way to get their fix.

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upandup19125's picture

I'll be there.

himdaddy's picture

The dope pushers will be killing each other to sell on the corner up the street. At these methadone places do they test the users for other drugs?

himdaddy's picture

From what I have been reading this Methadone is one of if not the toughest drug to with draw from. There is a drug called Suboxone that works just as good as Methadone but not as hard to withdraw from, the problem is Suboxone cost a lot more than Methadone. Anyone out there with more In formation I would like no.

Lauraska's picture

So how did the meeting go?

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2014 york's picture

Isn't it tomorrow (tuesday)....hope so because I missed it othrwise

upandup19125's picture

Meeting is Tuesday, 6 PM. West Kensington Ministries Presbyterian Church, 2140 N Hancock St (corner of Susquehanna Ave). The good folks at Kensington Hospital and neighbors in NSCA will likely be there in droves, so attendance from this side of Front Street is strongly encouraged. There are no property limits to attend this meeting as far as I know, so all who live in 19125 are welcome.

Coder's picture

I don't think there is anyone on this forum who thinks that addicts don't deserve to be treated.
The issue is, that methadone warehouses don't treat them.
It brings them into neighborhoods (usually where dope is already), and pretty much forces them to have daily social encounters with nothing but other addicts.
Due to the unethical and immoral business of hospital associated clinics, which just constantly bounce you between "doctors" who will pretty much give you a script for anything, so you don't test hot, the methodone business is just that, business. Who wouldn't want to be able to bill for someone EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THEIR LIVES FOR YEARS AND YEARS.
Treat the addicts, but on an individual basis. Find out the individual needs...and take care of them.
Not like a giant cattle call.
The people who are treating the addicts like chattle are the ones who are supposed to be caring for them.

th's picture

So why don't hospitals set up their own onsite Methadone programs?

Is it because having a line of addicts out the door and around the corner would be bad for the rest of their business?
Why shouldn't I take the same view when it comes to where I live?

You wanna dance? LET'S DANCE!

roman's picture

It would not be any surprise if the investors/realitors are not present. They have less or nothing to lose and a continued means to gain.
Please also never forget that there's much money to be made/gained for the long reach of corporate government (police, prisons, clinics, politicians, etc) by having junkies and illegal drug dealers.
Political correctness and sincere religious honor, such as Dan's, is slowly being turned into a means to foster self defeat. This also applies to those who clamor for unwitting action (remember the "whatever it takes" clamor) of the tried and true failed approach and problem solving.

Coder's picture

th wrote:
So why don't hospitals set up their own onsite Methadone programs?

The "hospitals" that do, (i.e. Kensington/Girard Medical @8th & Girard) aren't really hospitals anymore.
There are no independent standing hospitals in this city, they're all owned by megahealth complexes.
I'm really not aware of U of P having any type of clinic, but I do believe Jefferson has one down on 10th Street. I'm thinking they might have a correct 'model', as lots of addicts don't stay there, with their strict adherence to rules, such as, if you're not there at your appointment time, you don't get in.
A real hospital has enough money coming in that they don't need the headache. The cost of security/personnel would probably outweigh what they can make. Its these independent clinics, that might rent the space from a facility that make it worthwhile because they focus on quantity and not quality of care. They're renting the space, so not really responsible for alot of overhead costs.

upandup19125's picture

Penn does not have a clinic. Most city hospitals have enough issues with what goes on directly outside their doors and in the ER that they do not engage in methadone treatment. Jefferson's clinic is located a few blocks away because yes, they do not want those patients standing outside their hospital or to have to tax their already-stressed security force to deal with them.

Methadone clinic operators are in it for the money as are many unscrupulous healthcare providers who can bill to Medicaid. I work in healthcare and hear the horror stories every day of ancillary service providers (i.e. ambulance transport to dialysis for those who don't really need it) taking advantage of the system. When they get shut down, they just pop up another company right away. It's really terrible.

Lauraska's picture

My bad. The meeting is today. Sorry for the mixup.

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lighterthief's picture

Vote: 8 in favor, 54 in opposition

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

Kenzo's picture

I had enough after William's leading question where he was trying to paint KH's methadone program as a factor as to why drug-dealing around West Kensington is virtually invisible. That was a laugh and a half.

Kensington Hospital hired Carl Primavera, the zoning attorney to the stars and one of the most expensive money can buy. Makes sense--he's been working on the Healing Way case for 2+ years.

Takeaways:

- Twice, both times said by Primavera, the project to relocate the clinic to Front Street is needed for "Kensington Hospital to survive". In other words the patients are an income center and expanding the program is gonna happen because it's good for the bottom line. Duh.

- They applied for a building occupancy of 300 people; which just means legally there can be no more than 300 people inside of it at once. How many patients they plan to ramp up to after they move is a question the CEO doesn't really want to answer, HOWEVER:

- They presently are at 132 patient visits a day, stating their license is for 170. They can apply to the PA Dept of Health to change that of course after they relocate. Which they will. That's a given; they have every economic incentive in the world to.

- The hospital has one security guard for itself with no promise that they'll post another one to be present at all times at the building. The director in charge of handling security then blurted out a bummer: "we can't control what goes on, on Front Street." [Well, what about problems you're contributing to with operations that need a-fixin?]

Completely unimpressed. They are totally not prepared to handle the transition from a controlled secure environment to pushing the clinic and the patents to a semi-desolate stretch of front. I've seen this area late at night crawling with dealers doing transactions from cars.

When they start cranking up the dial on the patient load the QOL problems will start and everyone will just have to suck it; otherwise you're an inhumane awful human being.

Since they're paying buckets of money to Klehr for this zoning, anyone taking this through Common Pleas and Commonwealth Court which is a 2+ year affair will probably bankrupt the entire hospital, which would be dumb. I guess the only alternative then is to scream at the 26th District to swamp the area if the clinic puts on a caseload that causes loitering outside to start and dealer activity picks up in EKNA and NSCA (and also Fishtown).

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StarEditor's picture

Meeting was heated, to no one's surprise. People had a very hard time getting questions answered. The facilitator (Gonzalez) would not allow for more questions after less than an hour (that hour included the presentations from Kensington Hospital admins, lawyer, architect, etc.) and presenters did very little to address abundant questions about adding additional security at the new location, as well as how they'd guarantee their numbers wouldn't increase to 300 clients, as allowed by capacity at the new location. (They kept saying they wouldn't see that much expansion). Once people cast ballots, the vote was not counted at the meeting; Gonzalez literally ran away from me when I asked him if I could follow up to ask about numbers--I'll call someone else I spoke to tomorrow to ask.

Ali Eaves
Managing Editor, STAR Community Newsweekly

215-354-3113

2014 york's picture

That was the absolute worst presentation I have ever heard and the NSCA facilitator was clearly trying to prevent people from asking question. The residents were calm and respectful and he continually yelled at people about getting out of line. He spent more time yelling than the presentation/Q&A combined. People were laughing at him for being so absurd.

It seemed like a 50/50 mix of NS residents and EKNA. There were no arguments from the audience in favor of the proposal and it was really nice to see people coming together as a community not separated by the artificial borders of civic associations,or ethnic differences.

We were being told that the patient load is not expected to increase from the current 132 and that it had pretty much stayed at that level for 15 years. I asked why they couldn't use the currently unoccupied top floor of the Hospital, that is a full floor, to move their services if they are too cramped....the answer was that they had funding for Front St and they needed room for future services that they currently have no plan for. This tells me they have every intention to increase patient load and this program is their cash cow.

There were numerous mentions of this being a "state of the art facility" and what great services they could offer their patients. You should visit the real clinic at the corner of Front and Susquehanna that serves the community for non-addiction related health care....it's pathetic. I'm talking about the folks who really do live in the community and need basic health services. I suppose there is just more money to be made getting people high. All brought to you by your friendly pharmaceutical conglomerates making huge campaign contributions to our elected officials. Health Services for the community.....RIGHT? No money to care for the poor but you want to start popping pain pills because it makes you feel good and leads you down the road to heroin and methadone then we suddenly have compassion and state of the art care.

Kenzo's picture

That is one vibe I did pick up. There's not much love in Norris Square to shove the clinic under the EL. If I lived there I would absolutely prefer it to stay where it is now. They claimed only community people are patients. Well fine, it's already sized well for the 6,000 residents Norris Square has, unless you want to tell us how half of the neighborhood is heroin addicts.

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upandup19125's picture

To add, Kensington Hospital has owned the building at 2100 N Front for 20 years and let it sit there and rot until they decided they needed to make more money, then got a grant from someone else to pay for the reno. They don't care about the community until they can make some money off of it, otherwise the building would have been fixed up years ago to reduce blight. I should mention they're a "non profit" so they've paid zero in property taxes on that space. Basically, their plan is to open the new clinic to support themselves, and I'm sure then they could sell the land/building the hospital sits on for a bucket of money once their cash cow has been moved elsewhere.

They had no good answers in terms of security plans and were totally evasive when talking specifics about proposed patient loads. One of their plans included three shifts of patients, the last group being their "problem patients" who would be traveling to the clinic for appointments at the same time as when the kids get out at Kensington CAPA...

It was abundantly clear they've put zero thought into this project beyond some crappy renderings and how much money they can rake in from an increased patient load.

Lauraska's picture

The guy leading the meeting was incompetent. The lawyer thought he was putting on a trial and not presenting a zoning case. And the people from the clinic were outright LYING. I asked if any of their patients were in treatment per order of a criminal or family court and they said that NO ONE in their program was there under those circumstances. BULL. That's total BULL. They also said that they would get a license for 300 patients but wouldn't expand beyond the 170 they are currently allowed. That makes no sense. Why are they building out for the number of counselors that they would need for the 300-patient license? They also tried to tell us that their one security guard regularly patrols the Norris Square park and sees no drug dealing or poor behavior on the part of KH's patients. That's a joke.

Nobody's questions were truly answered, mostly because they weren't allowed to ask them thanks to the bully who was running the show.

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lighterthief's picture

upandup19125 wrote:
I'm sure then they could sell the land/building the hospital sits on for a bucket of money once their cash cow has been moved elsewhere.

Bingo

upandup19125 wrote:
They had no good answers in terms of security plans and were totally evasive when talking specifics about proposed patient loads.

Bingo

upandup19125 wrote:
It was abundantly clear they've put zero thought into this project beyond some crappy renderings and how much money they can rake in from an increased patient load.

Bingo

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

upandup19125's picture

300 would be the building occupancy. In theory, they could see triple that so long as no more than 300 were in the building at the same time. We will have another 7th & Girard on our hands if this isn't stopped. They see 700+ patients a day and it's a disaster. The renderings indicated they wanted to double the existing building in size, which is not a small building to begin with. There is no way they're going to spend all this money (I mean someone else's money) to only accommodate 300 patients. I'd like to see a copy of the grant application they submitted to whoever their funder is to see what they told them about anticipated patient loads.

I also thought their comments about this benefitting the community were ludicrous. The room was asked if anyone used the methadone clinic and out of 70 or so folks, not a single hand was raised. The families with young children living on the block of Coral Street closest to the site wanted to know how the operators were going to protect their little ones from patients and dealers wandering around outside the clinic. They had no answers.

Btw, I've heard the hospital is otherwise broke and this is their last ditch effort to save themselves. The comments we heard last night about them "needing" the clinic renovation support that idea. I hope they get tied up in court for the next few years and go bankrupt. I'd love to know how they're even affording that fancy attorney.

Coder's picture

Who exactly owns that 'hospital'?
(Which, IMO is a misnomer at this point.)
I'd be pretty interested to know exactly who's making the money on that place.

Lauraska's picture

The hospital is apparently a non-profit. The CEO was present last night.

Someone said at one point that this program has been in the neighborhood for 15 years. Well that's about how long the drug problem has ravaged this neighborhood, too. Someone who is involved with the library closest to the current KH location stood up as a witness to the troubles that patients cause in the library when they go there to hang out before or after their appointments. Another neighbor gave examples of situations he has witnessed on front street where patients were causing trouble. They said that 12% of their patients relapse. 12% of 300 is 36, and that isn't even the max number because it doesn't account for the influx and outflux of patients. But that's at least 36 people on any given day who are back on the street, buying from dealers and probably committing crimes to support their habits.

The bottom line is that this is about MONEY for KH and nothing more. They don't care about the community and quite frankly, they don't care about their patients unless the medicaid money is coming in. They want to burden the good, hardworking members of this neighborhood with their cash cow, and they'll say whatever it takes to get it done.

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Coder's picture

I just was wondering like who's responsible for the place. Who's on the 'board', etc.
All I can find is that it was sold in 1983 for $2. Yep, two dollars.
Who paid the two dollars?

Kenzo's picture

Here's their last 990:
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2012/231/381/2012-231381447-09555969-9.pdf

They're billing PA Medicaid around $6,000,000 a year according to Schedule H, Line 7(b). They claimed patient revenue for FY2011 was $6.2MM, so almost all of it is coming from Medicaid billing, as I suspected.

The hospital is paying Eileen Hause (CEO) at least $154,000 a year in annual compensation.

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Coder's picture

Ok, so here's my question.
I have worked exclusively for non-profit hospitals.
Every administrator I've ever talked to says that they "have to put the money back into the capital fund",
or something similar. If you make any money, it needs to be reinvested in the hospital.
Where is the money they're making going. Are they spending 6M a year in salary and maintenence?
Don't think so. Where is all that money going?
****Ooops... previously posted comment was incorrect, Temple brings in 5.9 Billion.****

Lauraska's picture

Also wanted to commend 2014 York, Kenzo, and our new EKNA president, Clare, for their advocacy last night. We were all passionate, but I always love when these meetings bring out the fire in all of us because it's a fire for our community, which is coming together more and more each day. Kudos to all of you. *high fives*

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Bird1721's picture

It appears from some google searches that the last batch of administrators were prosecuted for fraud and the current batch has had to defend lawsuits by the federal gov't for medicaid fraud.

2014 york's picture

What's the next move? What can we do? We are speculating on what KH is doing because they are not being honest about what is going on with their current location or their plans for the new building. We are not in the loop and that's obviously by design.

I could accept that the current buildings are too expensive to maintain and they intend to close KH and move all services to Front St but I'm not comfortable with the increased patients. They DO have space in their current location for a much larger clinic so that story line is BUNK. NSCA probably has plans for the current building. (additional speculation)

Kenzo's picture

Bird1721 wrote:
It appears from some google searches that the last batch of administrators were prosecuted for fraud and the current batch has had to defend lawsuits by the federal gov't for medicaid fraud.

They were in trouble with PA Medicaid way back in the 1980s:
http://articles.philly.com/1987-12-13/news/26202520_1_smallest-hospital-lawsuit-charges-board-member

That's no indicator that the current batch of folks there is doing any current fraudulent billing; and I seriously doubt the scars of what happened ages ago was forgotten with them. When your largest payor cuts you off you're instantly bankrupt. Medicaid cuts providers off all the time and they quickly go asunder.

Kensington Hospital only has one real insurance payor and it's providing all of their patient revenue. Without it they're instantly dead and everyone loses their jobs.

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Bird1721's picture

Here is a decision on a motion from the lawsuit. I dont know what the outcome of the whole case was. It was from 1991 and Hause was also named individually.

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19911880760FSupp1120_11688

Coder's picture

Bird1721 wrote:
It appears from some google searches that the last batch of administrators were prosecuted for fraud and the current batch has had to defend lawsuits by the federal gov't for medicaid fraud.

Lol, wonder where they can find a good coder?

Kenzo's picture

2014 york wrote:
What's the next move? What can we do? We are speculating on what KH is doing because they are not being honest about what is going on with their current location or their plans for the new building. We are not in the loop and that's obviously by design.

I could accept that the current buildings are too expensive to maintain and they intend to close KH and move all services to Front St but I'm not comfortable with the increased patients. They DO have space in their current location for a much larger clinic so that story line is BUNK. NSCA probably has plans for the current building. (additional speculation)

If KH is appealed to court in a 24-36 month fight they are going to go into bankruptcy, the last 990 that's on Guidestar doesn't look very good so I imagine it's worse right now. That will just exchange one mess for a different one.

They need Councilwoman Sanchez's help to get all the grant funding and loans they ask for; so she can leverage the hospital to make sure they get an actual armed guard instead that joke of a security guard they have now, cameras all over the property watching all four sides of it, get them to write out a security policy for how they'll manage the facility (i.e. zero tolerance for loitering).

If they don't do it, then MQS gets the blame I guess if it blows up and we're dealing with dealing, muggins and shootings around the clinic because there's a swarm of dealers jockeying to hustle the patients.

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Bird1721's picture

The hospital settled the lawsuit for 400k per this article

http://m.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/stories/1999/10/18/focus1.html?page=all&r=full

ForeverChanges's picture

I think I still need somebody to cut through all the "zoning-speak" for me.
So to break this down into layman's terms:
This thing is still a total 'go' despite obvious community opposition?
Am I reading the general take-away from last night's meeting correctly?
Improved security/capacity issues or not. We ARE pretty much getting a new methadone clinic at this location sooner or later?
That is pretty much a given?
The fight now is just over what overall "quality" of clinic we will be getting?

Lauraska's picture

No. They applied for permits from L&I and were rejected. They had to apply for a variance and that required this meeting with the community. The community voted 54-8 AGAINST the variance, and that will be reported to the ZBA prior to the hearing they will have. Concerned citizens will also be allowed to speak at this hearing. If the ZBA still approves at the hearing, the decision can be appealed through the court system. It is definitely NOT a done deal.

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StarEditor's picture

Lauraska, where did you get the voting numbers? I couldn't get anyone to tell me anything last night, and they hadn't counted it by the time I left, about 20 minutes after the meeting ended.

Ali Eaves
Managing Editor, STAR Community Newsweekly

215-354-3113

ForeverChanges's picture

Okay. That clears it up. Thanks. I started losing the plot around the 150th post on this thread.

2014 york's picture

Does the ZBA accept written statements in lieu of speaking at the hearing?

Kenzo's picture

The chances of the ZBA not approving the use is zero.

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Kenzo's picture

bingo wrote:
isn't there one near tiffin on girard? there's usually people milling about over there, although near the donut shop & laundromat.

The little green drink is an awesome aperitif for a half-dozen.

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Kenzo's picture

2014 york wrote:
Does the ZBA accept written statements in lieu of speaking at the hearing?

Yes but I recommend that you send it certified mail and it's customary when you write to the ZBA that you also send a copy to the applicant. It will be put on record in the case file and can be referenced by either the appellant or appellee later on in the court process.

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Lauraska's picture

StarEditor wrote:
Lauraska, where did you get the voting numbers? I couldn't get anyone to tell me anything last night, and they hadn't counted it by the time I left, about 20 minutes after the meeting ended.

Lighterthief posted them earlier in this very thread.

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Lauraska's picture

Letters to the ZBA can be submitted thusly: submit your opinion directly to the Zoning Board of Adjustments (ZBA) regarding the matter - be sure to include the address (2100 N Front St) of the property. The ZBA fax is 215-686-2429. You can also email to ZBA secretary at

.

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StarEditor's picture

I'm sorry, I missed it.

Ali Eaves
Managing Editor, STAR Community Newsweekly

215-354-3113

2014 york's picture

Kenzo wrote:
bingo wrote:
isn't there one near tiffin on girard? there's usually people milling about over there, although near the donut shop & laundromat.

The little green drink is an awesome aperitif for a half-dozen.

That explains why our favorite diner, Paradise, has been taken over by addicts. They are there every day and park at tables for hours. it's an obnoxious, very loud, crowd that makes being in there unpleasant. You have to live their life while trying to enjoy a meal. The owner and servers are very unhappy about it and don't know how to keep them from coming in. They also hang out in McDonalds all day long. They travel in packs and spend the entire day hanging out together.

This is the problem with addicts. They don't blend well into the fabric of the neighborhood. Their focus is not on work, home or being a part of the community. They congregate in public spaces like parks, libraries and restaurants. We have had to lock Emerald Park due to the drug activity, shooting up, and addicts hanging out all day. I see them in the playground on Haggert as well and the needles are everywhere.

I live across the street from a "halfway house" for methadone addicts. The cops are called at least once a week for fighting, screaming and theft issues. All day and night there are people outside screaming to get in the building. They urinate and defecate in the empty lot across the street from my home. Last week David called me to the window to see a woman almost completely naked while changing her clothes in the lot. My neighbors who have 3 children are afraid to let their kids out of the house. Living around addicts is horrible. It's not me judging their addiction...it's their behavior. I want to live in peace and enjoy my home without constantly hearing someone screaming the name Christina...who is an addict and a dealer.

bozoloper's picture

2014 york wrote:
it's an obnoxious, very loud, crowd that makes being in there unpleasant. You have to live their life while trying to enjoy a meal. The owner and servers are very unhappy about it and don't know how to keep them from coming in. The also hang out in McDonalds all day long. They travel in packs and spend the entire day hanging out together.

i think this describes the ft.us bar crawls perfectly.

nothin' bring you down like your hometown.

sdm's picture

bozoloper wrote:
2014 york wrote:
it's an obnoxious, very loud, crowd that makes being in there unpleasant. You have to live their life while trying to enjoy a meal. The owner and servers are very unhappy about it and don't know how to keep them from coming in. The also hang out in McDonalds all day long. They travel in packs and spend the entire day hanging out together.

i think this describes the ft.us bar crawls perfectly.

You win the Internet for today.

From welfare to Mayfair.

lighterthief's picture

2014 york wrote:
What's the next move? What can we do?

This is a good question.

EKNA will certainly respect the neighborhood vote and oppose, presumably so will Hope St Neighbors I am not sure what stance NSCA will take as they seem to be in favor as an organization by my perception at least.

Just screaming NOOO wont be enough, the RCO voice is readily discarded at ZBA when Council and the Planning Commission are in line, it seems like the political work has been done here.

Here are some thoughts
Daylighting the complicity of MQS office, hold her accountable in public, if it does go through as planned it should have her name written all over it, IN LIGHTS.

Business owners between Dauphin and Berks have the most stake here - I personally flyered every one of them, many seemed very interested, I did not recognize any of them in the room.

Neighbors who live in VERY close proximity will have a strong voice also,I know some of them were in the room.

I really wish they had presented a valid and convincing plan. Addiction is a huge problem in our neighborhood and while methadone is not necessarily the best thing sometimes it is the only path available or maybe that seems possible for addicts. A plan that shows a path to growth and outlined strategies for mitigating the negative impact that inevitably occurs from drawing 300 addicts to one spot every single day of the year would have gone a long way to sway my opinion. Instead we got an over moderated, non informative presentation that did not convince me there were any intentions beyond money.

Also the site plan and building expansion design were so terribly uninspiring - fenced in surface parking for employees, grass in all the wrong places. Note they did not allow their "clients" access to the open space meaning any outdoor loitering or queuing is on street.

What I see as really sad is that this stretch of front street is currently fairly empty, placing a negative use in a void will determine the future of this area. It will be a void full of addicts forever. I live one block from this site and while I don't anticipate that this clinic will cause massive problems (addicts walk past my house all day, every day as it is) it certainly is not a step in making things better.

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

michael.cunningham's picture

There are all good points lighterthief.

In addition, I would suggest that a handful of individuals who live in MQS' district might want to actually schedule a meeting with her to express concerns directly. Establishing a relationship with her is likely to be lead to much more productive outcomes in the future for the neighborhood. Stopping the clinic from opening may be unlikely but I'd bet you could win on (edited) some the of the other mitigation issues.

While I am unfamiliar with the dynamics of this particular case, MQS does not have a reputation as someone who does not care about what is best for the neighborhoods that she represents.

Matt Benatar's picture

Jobs?

Love is a Mattlefield.

2014 york's picture

I will ask MQS about her support and the reasons why. I don't like discussing neighborhood politics with her because I wold rather our relationship as neighbors remain separated. The residents of NS have lived with this issue for many years and many probably see this move as a positive or are neutral. The clinic does provide jobs in the neighborhood and this move would take it away from the park. We discussed it being close to the schools but being across from the park is worse. There are kids in that park any time the weather permits.

Norris Square residents worked very hard to re-take that park from the junkies and push the drug dealing away. It's difficult for me to understand why they have any support for a methadone clinic at all. I gathered, from the meeting, that it's not welcome but they don't want to see the hospital close.,,,even if most don't use it.

lighterthief's picture

BUMP ZBA public hearing Tomorrow wed 01/22/14 - 12:00PM at 1515 ARCH

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

Matt Benatar's picture

lighterthief wrote:
BUMP ZBA public hearing Tomorrow 12:00 at 1515 ARCH

Oh man. Nobody has work tomorrow because of the snow. Couldn't have worked out better, as long as it still happens.

Love is a Mattlefield.

Lauraska's picture

All city agencies are shut down tomorrow. Are we sure this is still happening?

This is my passive aggressive signature. Yeah it's about you.

lighterthief's picture

there is no announcement on the ZBA calendar of a cancelation - they did cancel on 7th so it is possible they will but a given for sure.

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

lighterthief's picture

Confirmed cancelled due to snow. Will update.

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face

HAZMAT's picture

According to the radio all city offices are going to be open. Is there a direct number that can be called to confirm this?

To be ones self and unafraid, right or wrong, is more admirable than the easy cowardice of surrender to conformaty. Irving Wallace.

upandup19125's picture

FYI- this hearing has been rescheduled for Wednesday, February 19 at 12:00pm. Same location- 1515 Arch, 18th Floor.